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rupert sheldrake needs no introduction

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he's an author and a researcher in the

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field of

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parapsychology with a phd from cambridge

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and biochemistry

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this channel is dedicated to

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conversations around theories of

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everything

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consciousness free will god and topics

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that are cognate to that it's also about

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putting a spotlight on those who i don't

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think get as much credit

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as they should and you can see my john

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moffatt interview as an example of that

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now rupert has plenty of credit he's

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done many ted talks

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but there is one aspect which i find a

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significant shame

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it's unfair that rupert has been

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mischaracterized and that even i have

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had

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false views about him because of what i

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read online

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that i thought was legitimate but wasn't

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we get to this specific issue toward the

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latter half of the conversation

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however unfortunately my video nor peter

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glenos who's my colleague

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neither his video recorded either way

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this is an important issue enjoy

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why do you think physicists particularly

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theoretical physicists don't listen to

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you

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what's going on why aren't these ideas

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well um i'm primarily a biologist so

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i mean i i did the question be better

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directed to biologists and physicists

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um well the fact is that what i'm

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putting forward are views which are

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considered by some to be heretical i'm

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trying to

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find models and ways of doing science

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that go beyond

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the dogmas of mechanistic materialism

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now that is inevitably controversial

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because that is still the dominant

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orthodoxy or paradigm

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and there are a lot of people who have a

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heavy investment in it

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particularly militant atheists i mean

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this is their worldview their belief

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system

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and i'm trying to show the way to a

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broader and more inclusive

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and i think more interesting kind of

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science which is

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the point of my relatively recent book

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sounds set free which has just come out

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in a new edition in britain

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so it's not true that everyone has a

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problem with it i have a lot of friends

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within the scientific world it's just

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that

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most of them keep their heads beneath

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the parapet because

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anyone who advocates on controversial

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views in science is worried about

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endangering their career losing their

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grants etc etc

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um but among in the scientific world

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there are lots of people

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who have much more open-minded views

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than you'd gather from

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listening to science popularizers

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there is a sense that this paradigm of

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this mechanism the universe as a

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mechanism

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this materialism is a cultural phenomena

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uh sort of a scientific paradigm

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that will have maybe an expiration date

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something along the lines of

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thomas kuhn scientific uh revolutions

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and that we are maybe seeing an era that

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might come to an

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end i'm curious what you think will

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cause that era to come to an end

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and if we could throughout the interview

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could we touch on

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uh whether or not this universal view

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of the universe as a machine

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is historically grounded what was the

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view

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that peoples had before this sort of

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mechanism to the universe

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that's mechanistic view of the universe

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well i mean the the history of science

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the subject i've studied and

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it helps a lot in thinking about this um

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is it shows that in medieval europe i

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mean science grew up in europe so we're

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looking primarily

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european history if we're looking at

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modern science and of course

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it grew up in the islamic world and in

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india and china in different ways but

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science as we now know it grew out of

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its european roots

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primarily and in medieval europe the

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general world view was a kind of

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christian animism the nature was alive

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living organisms were truly alive the

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earth

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stars and the planets were intelligences

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there was living beings with souls and

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intelligence the whole cosmos had a soul

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and animals and plants had souls um

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even magnets had souls that we we lived

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in an animated world

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um and the reason we call animals

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animals is because the latin word for

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soul is anima

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um they're beings with souls so what the

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mechanistic revolution in the 17th

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century

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did was to say no this is completely

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wrong this is just superstitious stuff

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the world isn't made up of living beings

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it's made up of inanimate matter that

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works in a machine-like way

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and the stars and planets are not alive

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in any way they're just inanimate and

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animals and plants are just machines and

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so are we

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that was the mechanistic revolution and

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that has given us modern science as we

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know it

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but this was built in from the beginning

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the idea that nature is dead inanimate

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in the chemical

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so you mentioned this idea of the

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superstitious

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in the western european context there's

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this divide

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between the supernatural and the natural

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and this

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divide sort of comes along with the

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evolution of western theology

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but there's a professor by the name of

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howell who writes

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on the supernatural as understood by

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members of the ojibwe

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a native group in north america and he

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writes

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that the appellation of supernatural

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persons

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if applied to characters in the midst of

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northern ojibwe people is a complete is

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completely

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misleading if no other reason than the

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fact that the concept of the

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supernatural

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presupposes the concept of the natural

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the latter is not present

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in ojibwe thought because an

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understanding of the supernatural is

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predicated on an

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understanding of the natural the very

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very ancient hellenic concept

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more primitive societies if you would

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primitive in quotes

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lack this natural supernatural divide

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considering that our science grew out of

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this divide between

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oh here's the natural where you know we

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have turnips and mycorrhizal fungi

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and forests and things and then there's

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the supernatural

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demons angels consciousness

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do you feel that this is a sort of false

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divide

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and that the time will come where this

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natural and supernatural will collapse

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the material in the conscious

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oh absolutely i think it's a false

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divide and i think we're

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already coming out of it the divide

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occurred

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essentially in the 17th century and

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before that in the middle ages in europe

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the

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example in saint thomas aquinas

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uh was didn't have the supernatural as a

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separate category god was in nature the

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whole of nature was animated by the

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divine

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and the whole of nature was prepa was

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motivated to move towards the divine it

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was

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but the mechanistic theory of descartes

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created that division quite explicitly i

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mean that's

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why it's called cartesian dualism and

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what descartes said is the whole of

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nature is a mechanical machine-like

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inanimate

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but there's also consciousness and

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consciousness

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consists who has three categories god

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angels

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and demons and things and spirits and

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human minds

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things in the natural world

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mysteriously interacting with brains he

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thought in the pineal gland

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and that all of the rest guard angels

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and demons and spirits are supernatural

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they're outside or beyond nature

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so that created this dualistic split

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which

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has underlying western thought since the

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17th century

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and in the 19th century um

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the the there was a kind of rebellion

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against it from two sides by idealist

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philosophers on the one hand who said no

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we don't want two things consciousness

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and matter we just want one thing

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consciousness

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and matters sort of dumb down mind

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that's the idealist philosophy

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and but the other side became

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predominant materialists

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who said there aren't two things uh

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matter

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and consciousness is only one thing

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matter that's what materialism is the

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doctrine that matters the only reality

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therefore god and angels and spear

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spirits and demons simply don't exist as

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whole supernatural realm is pure mumbo

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jumbo imagination and superstition

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and um the only thing left of that realm

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uh in this view of nature was the human

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mind then the human mind has to become

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simply an emergent phenomenon from human

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brains created by physical processes

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inside the head

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and so materialism creates

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it has a view of the universe as being

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completely non-conscious

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and mechanical and the very existence of

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human consciousness is a terrible

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embarrassment for materialism we ought

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not to be conscious and in fact

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materialist philosophers have spent at

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the later part of the 20th century and

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they're still trying to do it now

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trying to prove that we're not conscious

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or that

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if we are the consciousness doesn't

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actually do anything

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uh we don't really have free will it's

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just a kind of epic phenomenon

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or another way of talking about the

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physical activity of the brain

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so i think that this world view which is

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what we've all been brought up with

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and which we've exported to the rest of

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the world the same worldview is taught

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in schools in china

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india south america africa everywhere

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nowadays um because of the prestige and

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the successes of science and technology

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um i think we're emerging out of it and

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that's the whole point of my book sunset

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free i take the ten dogmas of

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contemporary science

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and show how actually science itself is

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growing out of them and showing us the

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way out of them

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and the for example the dogma that

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our minds are nothing but our brains the

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activity of our brains

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um that's being challenged in several

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ways even today within

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the academic and scientific world partly

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through the implausibility of the

288
00:10:43,190 --> 00:10:41,120
materialist worldview

289
00:10:44,870 --> 00:10:43,200
partly through the intractability of the

290
00:10:47,190 --> 00:10:44,880
hard problem

291
00:10:50,389 --> 00:10:47,200
and what it's led to is the emergence of

292
00:10:52,230 --> 00:10:50,399
a new kind of pan psychism the idea that

293
00:10:54,069 --> 00:10:52,240
there's a difference of degree between

294
00:10:55,030 --> 00:10:54,079
our consciousness and the rest of nature

295
00:10:57,910 --> 00:10:55,040
not a kind

296
00:10:59,670 --> 00:10:57,920
that even electrons atoms and so on have

297
00:11:01,430 --> 00:10:59,680
some degree of consciousness

298
00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:01,440
and therefore consciousness can emerge

299
00:11:05,990 --> 00:11:03,600
in brains not from totally non-conscious

300
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:06,000
matter but from less conscious matter

301
00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:07,760
and that's surprisingly popular at the

302
00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:13,750
do you have any opinion on daniel

303
00:11:17,509 --> 00:11:16,290
dennett's explaining consciousness book

304
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:17,519
[Music]

305
00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:19,360
yes i mean obviously what he's trying to

306
00:11:23,030 --> 00:11:21,600
do is explain consciousness away

307
00:11:24,870 --> 00:11:23,040
his book's called consciousness

308
00:11:25,190 --> 00:11:24,880
explained but as many people have said

309
00:11:27,190 --> 00:11:25,200
it

310
00:11:28,389 --> 00:11:27,200
we better call consciousness explained

311
00:11:31,990 --> 00:11:28,399
away

312
00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:32,000
dennit is a um a true believing hardcore

313
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:36,000
materialist um who um

314
00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:38,560
he makes it clear that his total

315
00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:41,360
opposition is to cartesian dualism

316
00:11:45,269 --> 00:11:43,120
which i just mentioned the idea there's

317
00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:45,279
a supernatural realm out there

318
00:11:50,470 --> 00:11:47,200
but he thinks the only alternative to

319
00:11:52,949 --> 00:11:50,480
that is hardcore materialism

320
00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:52,959
and uh i think he's wrong i think there

321
00:11:55,750 --> 00:11:53,760
are

322
00:11:57,430 --> 00:11:55,760
several alternatives including pan

323
00:12:00,550 --> 00:11:57,440
psychism

324
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:00,560
um but he then goes to enormous lengths

325
00:12:06,710 --> 00:12:03,120
to try and explain consciousness away

326
00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:06,720
um that he wants to get rid of

327
00:12:11,829 --> 00:12:10,160
any kind of magic or the problem is of

328
00:12:13,030 --> 00:12:11,839
course that

329
00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:13,040
you know it's very hard to be a

330
00:12:18,550 --> 00:12:15,279
consistent materialist if you believe

331
00:12:19,430 --> 00:12:18,560
that you're a machine yourself from your

332
00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:19,440
mind's nostril

333
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:23,360
about nine but complex computer then

334
00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:25,440
your belief in materialism is just

335
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:26,880
something that your mind makes you

336
00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:27,680
believe your

337
00:12:30,870 --> 00:12:30,079
your brain makes you believe uh

338
00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:30,880
materialists

339
00:12:34,389 --> 00:12:32,880
i'd like to think they're an exception

340
00:12:36,389 --> 00:12:34,399
to their in philosophy

341
00:12:38,790 --> 00:12:36,399
that they adopt their own views on the

342
00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:38,800
basis of reasons science and evidence

343
00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:40,720
but actually their own philosophy says

344
00:12:44,230 --> 00:12:42,399
that they have no choice in doing that

345
00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:44,240
they're simply programmed to believe in

346
00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:45,680
materialism

347
00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:49,440
um a meme or a meme complex has captured

348
00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:50,480
their brain

349
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:53,040
and forces them to believe in it um and

350
00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:54,480
they're not aware that it's

351
00:12:58,150 --> 00:12:56,480
um they're being compelled to believe in

352
00:12:59,990 --> 00:12:58,160
it

353
00:13:02,310 --> 00:13:00,000
so because their consciousness is a kind

354
00:13:02,629 --> 00:13:02,320
of illusion anyway i think the problem

355
00:13:04,150 --> 00:13:02,639
with

356
00:13:05,990 --> 00:13:04,160
dennett and other materialist

357
00:13:10,870 --> 00:13:06,000
philosophers is that

358
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:13,990
are you opposed to reason or do you see

359
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:15,519
the limitations and reason first of all

360
00:13:19,990 --> 00:13:16,800
we'd have to define reason

361
00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:20,000
for the of audience

362
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:21,680
i'm not opposed to reason i spent my

363
00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:23,680
whole career as a research scientist

364
00:13:26,310 --> 00:13:25,360
publishing papers in peer-reviewed

365
00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:26,320
journals and

366
00:13:29,910 --> 00:13:28,880
doing experiments and writing books

367
00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:29,920
which i hope

368
00:13:36,389 --> 00:13:33,680
are rational um well i think

369
00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:36,399
what reason is is simply a function of

370
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:38,079
the human mind to do with

371
00:13:42,389 --> 00:13:40,480
looking at evidence um you know

372
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:42,399
evaluating things in terms of

373
00:13:45,910 --> 00:13:43,920
probability and so forth

374
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:45,920
i don't think it's some mysterious

375
00:13:51,269 --> 00:13:48,000
property with a capital are

376
00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:51,279
that makes us semi-divine and separate

377
00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:53,040
from the rest of nature

378
00:13:59,430 --> 00:13:57,199
um and you know there's so

379
00:14:01,269 --> 00:13:59,440
militant materialists go around saying

380
00:14:03,509 --> 00:14:01,279
they believe in science and reason i

381
00:14:05,910 --> 00:14:03,519
mean richard dawkins for example

382
00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:05,920
has the richard dawkins foundation for

383
00:14:10,870 --> 00:14:07,600
reason and science

384
00:14:14,949 --> 00:14:10,880
um but what they mean by reason

385
00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:14,959
is their world view

386
00:14:19,269 --> 00:14:18,079
and i find the best way of testing how

387
00:14:22,389 --> 00:14:19,279
serious they are about

388
00:14:24,870 --> 00:14:22,399
reason and science is to bring out the

389
00:14:27,269 --> 00:14:24,880
subject of telepathy for example

390
00:14:29,189 --> 00:14:27,279
um there's a lot of evidence for it

391
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:29,199
there's lots of experiments that suggest

392
00:14:33,030 --> 00:14:30,800
it really happens

393
00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:33,040
it drives material is crazy because it

394
00:14:36,310 --> 00:14:34,720
doesn't fit their world view so they

395
00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:36,320
think it ought not to happen therefore

396
00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:38,880
all the evidence must be flawed

397
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:40,720
but if you try and have a debate with a

398
00:14:45,509 --> 00:14:42,000
materialist about

399
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:45,519
telepathy they just get angry um

400
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:48,800
because they can't look at the evidence

401
00:14:53,110 --> 00:14:51,600
scientifically or reasonably um even

402
00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:53,120
though they claim to believe in reason

403
00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:54,320
and science which

404
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:56,480
if you have any materialist friends this

405
00:15:00,069 --> 00:14:58,320
is a very good test

406
00:15:01,990 --> 00:15:00,079
bring up the subject of telepathy and

407
00:15:02,470 --> 00:15:02,000
see how reasonable and scientific they

408
00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:02,480
are

409
00:15:08,069 --> 00:15:06,240
certainly not very reasonable or

410
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:08,079
scientific

411
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:09,519
even though they claim to believe in

412
00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:11,360
reason with a capital r

413
00:15:17,829 --> 00:15:15,040
kind of slogan

414
00:15:19,189 --> 00:15:17,839
for a materialist world view rather than

415
00:15:24,069 --> 00:15:19,199
a genuine devotion

416
00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:26,949
you mentioned pan psychism does that

417
00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:28,160
have a role

418
00:15:34,949 --> 00:15:31,600
in relation to your belief in a

419
00:15:38,829 --> 00:15:34,959
a telepathy between organisms between

420
00:15:40,150 --> 00:15:38,839
life and to expound on this idea of

421
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:40,160
pansychism

422
00:15:44,949 --> 00:15:42,000
there's a certain sense that our

423
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:44,959
conscious has an unconscious

424
00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:47,040
but i think if we go deeper is it fair

425
00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:48,639
to say that our unconscious has an

426
00:15:54,949 --> 00:15:51,680
unconscious and that this

427
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:54,959
might act as a bedrock for the emergent

428
00:16:00,230 --> 00:15:57,040
consciousness that we that we see

429
00:16:01,350 --> 00:16:00,240
that is to say if we go further if we go

430
00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:01,360
down this iceberg

431
00:16:07,590 --> 00:16:04,720
is there a point where my unconscious is

432
00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:07,600
unconscious overlaps with with yours and

433
00:16:11,829 --> 00:16:09,600
that we are actually

434
00:16:12,949 --> 00:16:11,839
not really individuals but emergent

435
00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:12,959
beings from a

436
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:16,320
sort of bedrock as the hindus would say

437
00:16:20,629 --> 00:16:18,959
um that we are both dreams in this

438
00:16:22,629 --> 00:16:20,639
larger dream of vishnu

439
00:16:25,670 --> 00:16:22,639
or as crucial might say that we are

440
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:25,680
within the mind of god

441
00:16:28,949 --> 00:16:28,000
well i think that's ultimately the case

442
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:28,959
yes

443
00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:32,000
um and i think that the idea that our

444
00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:32,639
own

445
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:34,880
personal unconscious is part of a larger

446
00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:36,000
unconscious is

447
00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:37,920
i mean after all quite well known idea i

448
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:40,160
mean this is the basis of jung's idea of

449
00:16:45,829 --> 00:16:42,160
the collective unconscious

450
00:16:48,629 --> 00:16:45,839
and jung the psychologist cj

451
00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:48,639
young had this idea that we all draw

452
00:16:51,189 --> 00:16:50,560
upon this collective unconscious which

453
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:51,199
is a

454
00:16:54,949 --> 00:16:53,519
kind of collective memory a collective

455
00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:54,959
human memory

456
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:57,440
and this underlies our dreams the

457
00:17:01,509 --> 00:16:59,759
archetypal patterns we experience in our

458
00:17:04,549 --> 00:17:01,519
lives and so forth

459
00:17:06,789 --> 00:17:04,559
um and this is very similar to my own

460
00:17:07,590 --> 00:17:06,799
ideas about morphic resonance i mean my

461
00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:07,600
own

462
00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:10,720
main hypothesis about memory

463
00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:12,720
is that it works by a kind of resonance

464
00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:14,000
from the past

465
00:17:18,870 --> 00:17:16,959
morphic resonance i call it um which

466
00:17:21,270 --> 00:17:18,880
means that each species has a kind of

467
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:21,280
collective memory not just humans

468
00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:24,400
um all have a collective memory and most

469
00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:24,880
of our

470
00:17:30,789 --> 00:17:28,000
habits um are unconscious i mean

471
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:30,799
nature but the general theory that i'm

472
00:17:34,230 --> 00:17:32,400
putting forward is that the so-called

473
00:17:35,430 --> 00:17:34,240
laws of nature are more like habits the

474
00:17:39,029 --> 00:17:35,440
whole of the universe

475
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:39,039
has a kind of memory um and there's

476
00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:41,600
the habits of nature underlie all the

477
00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:43,600
regularities within the physical

478
00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:46,000
and chemical and biological and

479
00:17:51,190 --> 00:17:48,880
psychological realms

480
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:51,200
they're all habitual and habits are

481
00:17:55,669 --> 00:17:52,559
generally unconscious

482
00:17:57,750 --> 00:17:55,679
in us as well therefore the role of

483
00:18:00,150 --> 00:17:57,760
consciousness

484
00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:00,160
is always taking place against the

485
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:01,840
background of habits and

486
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:04,720
unconscious habits and collective memory

487
00:18:09,510 --> 00:18:06,400
that's the view that i've

488
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:09,520
that i myself adopt so

489
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:12,240
do we have free will i understand what

490
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:12,960
you're saying

491
00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:15,200
implies that we're influenced by

492
00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:17,280
previous arrangements like matter has

493
00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:18,400
been arranged in a certain

494
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:20,640
conglomeration i think that's lee

495
00:18:24,310 --> 00:18:22,480
smolin's principle of

496
00:18:25,669 --> 00:18:24,320
precedence which reminds me of the

497
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:25,679
morphic resonance theory

498
00:18:29,830 --> 00:18:28,000
just in physics form is there room for

499
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:29,840
free will do you personally believe in

500
00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:31,280
free will

501
00:18:34,630 --> 00:18:33,440
oh of course i think everybody does i

502
00:18:36,870 --> 00:18:34,640
don't i mean there are people who

503
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:36,880
pretend they don't or argue in seminar

504
00:18:40,870 --> 00:18:38,799
rooms that it doesn't exist

505
00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:40,880
but i haven't met anyone who actually

506
00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:42,720
really believes that they're an

507
00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:44,880
automaton with no free choice

508
00:18:49,029 --> 00:18:46,880
and our entire legal and educational

509
00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:49,039
system is based on belief in free will

510
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:51,120
if your brain makes you do it and you

511
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:52,480
have no free will then

512
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:54,640
that would be a perfect defense in any

513
00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:56,160
law court

514
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:59,200
for being convicted of any crime um

515
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:01,280
so i think everyone believes in it and i

516
00:19:05,029 --> 00:19:02,640
think rightly so

517
00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:05,039
and of course we don't have infinite

518
00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:06,880
freedom of choice in all matters we're

519
00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:08,640
influenced by our environment our

520
00:19:11,669 --> 00:19:10,720
background our conditioning our habits

521
00:19:14,870 --> 00:19:11,679
our

522
00:19:18,470 --> 00:19:14,880
frameworks of thought like paradigms um

523
00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:18,480
we're influenced by all these habits but

524
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:20,160
there's a certain measure of choice we

525
00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:21,760
have all of us

526
00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:23,360
i mean we all chose to be talking

527
00:19:28,230 --> 00:19:25,919
together right now i don't believe i was

528
00:19:30,150 --> 00:19:28,240
programmed by my genes or by anything

529
00:19:31,669 --> 00:19:30,160
else to be talking to kat and peter at

530
00:19:34,390 --> 00:19:31,679
this exact moment

531
00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:34,400
um and i don't suppose you'd be you you

532
00:19:39,270 --> 00:19:36,320
were programmed to do it either so i

533
00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:39,280
i personally i see it as a non-issue and

534
00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:41,039
a kind of artificial

535
00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:44,320
debate that i'm not very interested in

536
00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:46,080
so so how do you respond to the

537
00:19:51,110 --> 00:19:49,600
reductionist attitude of causation just

538
00:19:52,549 --> 00:19:51,120
why did you make the decision you made

539
00:19:53,750 --> 00:19:52,559
because your neurons did so and so and

540
00:19:55,510 --> 00:19:53,760
you just keep asking why

541
00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:55,520
why because because because until you

542
00:19:58,789 --> 00:19:57,200
get to some wall

543
00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:58,799
that you could not have possibly caused

544
00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:00,400
as your mother gave birth to you or the

545
00:20:03,669 --> 00:20:01,919
big bang initial conditions

546
00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:03,679
what what's your response to that line

547
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:05,760
of argumentation

548
00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:07,520
well i think even reductionists would

549
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:09,840
agree that chance plays a large role

550
00:20:14,549 --> 00:20:12,400
in what happens in nature i mean the

551
00:20:16,070 --> 00:20:14,559
neo-darwinian theory of evolution which

552
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:16,080
is their preferred

553
00:20:22,390 --> 00:20:19,120
theory of evolution uh puts all the

554
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:22,400
creativity ultimately in transmutations

555
00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:24,159
so none of them are saying that nature

556
00:20:28,630 --> 00:20:25,840
is totally determined

557
00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:28,640
so just sorry just to quickly interject

558
00:20:30,789 --> 00:20:30,480
i'm not talking about lap classes demon

559
00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:30,799
where

560
00:20:34,870 --> 00:20:32,960
it's completely fixed but but even if we

561
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:34,880
allow for quantum fluctuations

562
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:37,600
they the materialist might still say

563
00:20:40,310 --> 00:20:38,720
that

564
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:40,320
the randomness is not dependent on you

565
00:20:43,669 --> 00:20:41,760
either so whether you're determined or

566
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:43,679
it's random on top of determinism

567
00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:45,760
it's still not within your control so

568
00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:48,000
what's what would you say to that

569
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:49,919
well then i'd say to them well how come

570
00:20:57,669 --> 00:20:55,270
do they what's the reason for them

571
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:57,679
believing themselves turn the tables

572
00:21:00,789 --> 00:20:59,200
in this argument and say what's the

573
00:21:02,549 --> 00:21:00,799
reason if you're a materialist for you

574
00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:02,559
believing in materialism

575
00:21:06,310 --> 00:21:05,440
what's caused you to believe in that and

576
00:21:08,149 --> 00:21:06,320
they probably

577
00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:08,159
they'd say well you know they'd have to

578
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:10,480
say trans events in the brain

579
00:21:15,190 --> 00:21:13,520
conditioning etc they probably say i've

580
00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:15,200
been convinced of it by

581
00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:17,760
evidence by reason by the scientific

582
00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:18,720
method

583
00:21:23,029 --> 00:21:21,360
i believe in reason and science and then

584
00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:23,039
you say well okay well can you explain

585
00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:25,280
those in terms of materialism

586
00:21:28,630 --> 00:21:28,240
um because they imply free choice they

587
00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:28,640
imply

588
00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:31,520
choosing a world view on the basis of

589
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:32,640
evidence

590
00:21:36,149 --> 00:21:34,720
and that's why i was saying earlier i

591
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:36,159
think the materialist position is

592
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:37,200
self-refuting

593
00:21:42,870 --> 00:21:40,400
their own belief in materialism um

594
00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:42,880
depends on the assumption that they're

595
00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:44,960
free to choose on the basis of evidence

596
00:21:48,390 --> 00:21:46,080
and reason

597
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:48,400
um and so if they're going to say

598
00:21:51,669 --> 00:21:50,400
everybody else's choices are totally

599
00:21:53,909 --> 00:21:51,679
conditioned by

600
00:21:55,750 --> 00:21:53,919
nerve impulses neurotransmitters and

601
00:21:59,190 --> 00:21:55,760
random events in the brain

602
00:22:01,029 --> 00:21:59,200
um then again uh there you're the in the

603
00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:01,039
end or at least quite quickly

604
00:22:05,669 --> 00:22:02,400
i think one will find that they're

605
00:22:09,909 --> 00:22:05,679
making an exception for themselves

606
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:09,919
there is a um brilliant comic

607
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:13,200
calvin hopps where calvin and hobbes are

608
00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:14,080
going through

609
00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:16,640
monster land and by their being led by a

610
00:22:22,870 --> 00:22:18,400
monster tour guide

611
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:22,880
hops

612
00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:24,960
run across a monster who's repeating the

613
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:26,159
number nine

614
00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:27,760
right so he's saying nine nine nine nine

615
00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:29,440
nine and

616
00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:31,440
calvin asks the monster tour guide what

617
00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:33,520
is he doing he says the monster tour

618
00:22:38,230 --> 00:22:35,200
guide says oh he's just repeating

619
00:22:41,669 --> 00:22:38,240
nine in a very deterministic sequential

620
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:41,679
order so no they keep walking

621
00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:43,760
and they come across another monster and

622
00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:45,120
the monster is repeating

623
00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:46,880
nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine

624
00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:48,559
same number over and over and over again

625
00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:50,240
just like the monster beforehand they're

626
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:52,080
identical

627
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:55,200
and he says okay is

628
00:22:58,230 --> 00:22:57,360
this monster uh what's this monster

629
00:23:00,470 --> 00:22:58,240
doing

630
00:23:01,350 --> 00:23:00,480
and the monster tour guide says oh he's

631
00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:01,360
saying numbers

632
00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:05,360
at random totally undeterministically

633
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:08,240
they all happen to be nine there's a

634
00:23:10,549 --> 00:23:09,760
great sense that we couldn't tell

635
00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:10,559
whether or not an

636
00:23:13,909 --> 00:23:12,720
ordered sequence was truly chaotic or

637
00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:13,919
truly ordered

638
00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:15,520
and whether or not the phenomena of

639
00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:17,760
nature that we see in the conscious mind

640
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:18,480
is order

641
00:23:23,190 --> 00:23:21,840
or some you know random pattern that

642
00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:23,200
seems to be ordered

643
00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:25,280
would you say that this applies to

644
00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:26,240
whatever you find

645
00:23:29,909 --> 00:23:28,720
as the bedrock of consciousness

646
00:23:31,029 --> 00:23:29,919
furthermore

647
00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:31,039
you mentioned how you don't believe

648
00:23:35,190 --> 00:23:33,120
consciousness is purely material

649
00:23:36,230 --> 00:23:35,200
and therefore explained away but at the

650
00:23:38,549 --> 00:23:36,240
same time too

651
00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:38,559
you recognize that the divide between

652
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:40,320
sort of supernatural substance something

653
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:41,360
closer to

654
00:23:45,269 --> 00:23:43,200
um sarge radical freedom that

655
00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:45,279
consciousness is this sort of free agent

656
00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:46,960
is isn't necessarily real because it

657
00:23:51,029 --> 00:23:48,720
still recognizes that divide

658
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:51,039
what is the bedrock of consciousness if

659
00:23:54,870 --> 00:23:52,640
it's neither material nor

660
00:23:57,590 --> 00:23:54,880
this sort of uh substance that

661
00:24:00,630 --> 00:23:57,600
transcends all material

662
00:24:03,350 --> 00:24:00,640
and is it ordered or is it random or

663
00:24:05,510 --> 00:24:03,360
could we never tell

664
00:24:07,190 --> 00:24:05,520
well i think in the end it's a choice of

665
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:07,200
world view isn't it and

666
00:24:11,669 --> 00:24:09,360
i think that the world views we have

667
00:24:14,950 --> 00:24:11,679
depend on our experience as well as on

668
00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:14,960
reason most people who have a religious

669
00:24:17,830 --> 00:24:15,679
world view

670
00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:17,840
i mean the great mystics in all

671
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:19,679
religious traditions

672
00:24:22,870 --> 00:24:21,360
believe there's a form of consciousness

673
00:24:26,230 --> 00:24:22,880
beyond the human level

674
00:24:30,789 --> 00:24:26,240
of which our consciousness is a small

675
00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:30,799
part not on the basis of reason logic

676
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:33,360
calculations or mathematics but on the

677
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:35,520
basis of mystical experiences where they

678
00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:37,360
feel themselves to be part of a vastly

679
00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:38,960
greater consciousness

680
00:24:41,990 --> 00:24:41,600
and this is what the great indian rishis

681
00:24:43,990 --> 00:24:42,000
were

682
00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:44,000
experiencing in their retreats in the

683
00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:45,520
himalayas and still do

684
00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:47,360
and what the buddha experienced in his

685
00:24:51,909 --> 00:24:49,120
moment of enlightenment

686
00:24:53,590 --> 00:24:51,919
and the it's what the great christian

687
00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:53,600
mystics have experienced and what the

688
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:55,360
sufi mystics experience

689
00:24:59,029 --> 00:24:57,679
it's it's in all traditions in shamanic

690
00:25:01,590 --> 00:24:59,039
traditions too

691
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:01,600
people don't go to classrooms and learn

692
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:02,640
about spirits

693
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:06,000
they have experiences of experiencing

694
00:25:11,190 --> 00:25:07,279
forms of consciousness

695
00:25:13,029 --> 00:25:11,200
other than our own and ultimately over

696
00:25:15,029 --> 00:25:13,039
kind of ground of all consciousness

697
00:25:16,549 --> 00:25:15,039
itself which we can experience through

698
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:16,559
mystical experience

699
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:18,799
meditation and other spiritual practices

700
00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:20,400
can help us to

701
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:22,320
more likely makes it more likely that

702
00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:24,799
we'll have these kinds of experiences

703
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:28,000
these tell us if we listen to our and

704
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:30,080
pay attention to our inexperience if we

705
00:25:33,590 --> 00:25:31,760
have these experiences

706
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:33,600
there's a greater form of consciousness

707
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:36,240
of which our end minds apart

708
00:25:41,029 --> 00:25:39,520
and anyone who has that world view

709
00:25:42,549 --> 00:25:41,039
which is the world view of all the

710
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:42,559
world's religions

711
00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:44,799
and almost everyone who's got a kind of

712
00:25:47,909 --> 00:25:46,720
spiritual worldview takes the view that

713
00:25:51,269 --> 00:25:47,919
consciousness

714
00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:51,279
is underlies the universe and uh our own

715
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:53,120
consciousness is part of that a kind of

716
00:25:56,390 --> 00:25:55,120
fractal version of that ultimate

717
00:25:58,870 --> 00:25:56,400
consciousness

718
00:25:59,669 --> 00:25:58,880
um then anyone who takes that view would

719
00:26:01,430 --> 00:25:59,679
see

720
00:26:03,430 --> 00:26:01,440
the universe in a different way from

721
00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:03,440
someone who starts from materialist

722
00:26:06,310 --> 00:26:04,240
assumption

723
00:26:07,909 --> 00:26:06,320
materialism after all isn't based on

724
00:26:10,149 --> 00:26:07,919
experiences and it's a purely

725
00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:10,159
intellectual theory

726
00:26:14,549 --> 00:26:12,559
that denies other forms of consciousness

727
00:26:16,710 --> 00:26:14,559
that's its first step his first move

728
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:16,720
is to say by definition there are no

729
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:18,080
forms of consciousness

730
00:26:21,269 --> 00:26:19,760
outside the universal within the

731
00:26:22,630 --> 00:26:21,279
universe everything is made of

732
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:22,640
unconscious matter

733
00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:25,360
and so far as we are conscious then it's

734
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:27,039
just a product of our brain

735
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:29,840
material brain activity that's their

736
00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:30,960
worldview

737
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:34,240
and um it's a belief system and people

738
00:26:38,789 --> 00:26:36,080
who are deeply embedded in it

739
00:26:39,190 --> 00:26:38,799
um are resistant to any evidence that

740
00:26:41,669 --> 00:26:39,200
would

741
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:41,679
take them beyond it however when you

742
00:26:45,430 --> 00:26:43,440
look at the actual life history of

743
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:45,440
people who used to be materialists who

744
00:26:49,909 --> 00:26:46,480
aren't anymore

745
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:49,919
including me then um

746
00:26:53,909 --> 00:26:52,080
what you find is that what's persuaded

747
00:26:55,269 --> 00:26:53,919
people that consciousness is more

748
00:26:57,830 --> 00:26:55,279
pervasive than

749
00:26:59,830 --> 00:26:57,840
um just a product of the brain is

750
00:27:01,830 --> 00:26:59,840
personal experience

751
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:01,840
mystical experiences for example in

752
00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:03,840
near-death experiences

753
00:27:09,029 --> 00:27:05,760
often for many modern people through

754
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:09,039
psychedelic illuminations

755
00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:11,520
and through other experiences which

756
00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:13,760
convince them that their mind is more

757
00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:16,080
than just the activity of their brain

758
00:27:19,269 --> 00:27:17,360
the materialist would then

759
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:19,279
counter by saying well that's just an

760
00:27:22,389 --> 00:27:20,640
illusion

761
00:27:23,909 --> 00:27:22,399
but then you have the situation what do

762
00:27:25,430 --> 00:27:23,919
you trust most do you trust an

763
00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:25,440
intellectual theory

764
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:27,760
with a originating basically in its

765
00:27:31,990 --> 00:27:29,760
present form in the 19th century

766
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:32,000
as an attempt to get rid of dualism

767
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:32,880
religion

768
00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:35,039
and so forth as part of an atheistic

769
00:27:39,669 --> 00:27:36,240
crusade

770
00:27:42,070 --> 00:27:39,679
um a theory about science um or do you

771
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:42,080
accept your own experience

772
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:44,640
and personally i think it's more

773
00:27:50,230 --> 00:27:45,919
scientific to

774
00:27:52,149 --> 00:27:50,240
accept experience because the very word

775
00:27:53,909 --> 00:27:52,159
empirical on which science is based

776
00:27:57,029 --> 00:27:53,919
means to base it on

777
00:27:58,870 --> 00:27:57,039
experience and

778
00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:58,880
the greek word empirical means

779
00:28:03,430 --> 00:28:00,640
experience and in french

780
00:28:04,870 --> 00:28:03,440
the the word experience means experience

781
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:04,880
and experiment

782
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:07,600
um so it's not as if our own experience

783
00:28:10,870 --> 00:28:08,640
is irrelevant

784
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:10,880
to understanding consciousness it is

785
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:13,440
consciousness

786
00:28:16,549 --> 00:28:15,200
what the heck are psychedelics doing

787
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:16,559
beside a neurochemical

788
00:28:19,909 --> 00:28:19,279
reaction how are they doing what they do

789
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:19,919
and

790
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:21,520
something else i've been interested in

791
00:28:24,389 --> 00:28:22,880
that's part one something else i've been

792
00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:24,399
interested in is

793
00:28:28,389 --> 00:28:26,240
the difference between lsd is

794
00:28:31,590 --> 00:28:28,399
psychedelic and then there's dmt it's

795
00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:31,600
almost like in a class of its own

796
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:33,600
but they're both psychedelics what the

797
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:35,760
heck is going on with dmt and is there

798
00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:36,960
any

799
00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:40,159
entities that people see

800
00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:42,320
so that is what are psychedelics doing

801
00:28:45,350 --> 00:28:43,440
besides the

802
00:28:48,549 --> 00:28:45,360
reaction in your brain and then

803
00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:48,559
furthermore what separates lsd from dmt

804
00:28:53,350 --> 00:28:51,600
well i think i think you know

805
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:53,360
what the answer you give depends on your

806
00:28:56,789 --> 00:28:55,440
world view if you start from a

807
00:28:59,029 --> 00:28:56,799
materialist worldview

808
00:29:00,269 --> 00:28:59,039
then what they're doing is changing you

809
00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:00,279
know they're interfering with

810
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:02,640
neurotransmitter receptor sites in the

811
00:29:07,269 --> 00:29:04,000
brain and so forth

812
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:07,279
and leading to distorted brain activity

813
00:29:13,269 --> 00:29:10,960
and on fmri scans of people on lsd

814
00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:13,279
or on other psychedelics you can

815
00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:14,080
actually see

816
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:16,320
differences in brain activity different

817
00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:18,240
areas connect up together

818
00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:21,360
all that for a materialist would be all

819
00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:22,559
you need to say

820
00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:24,000
and the conscious changes in

821
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:25,760
consciousness they produce are just

822
00:29:28,549 --> 00:29:27,600
illusions like everything else produced

823
00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:28,559
by the brain

824
00:29:31,990 --> 00:29:30,080
they're just producing a different set

825
00:29:33,269 --> 00:29:32,000
of illusions and there are so

826
00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:33,279
there are materialists who take

827
00:29:37,909 --> 00:29:35,520
psychedelics who

828
00:29:39,590 --> 00:29:37,919
would explain their own experience in

829
00:29:43,590 --> 00:29:39,600
those terms

830
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:43,600
however the experiences themselves

831
00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:45,600
don't seem like just something happening

832
00:29:49,990 --> 00:29:47,600
in the brain people feel they're getting

833
00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:50,000
true insight into some much more

834
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:51,360
profound

835
00:29:56,310 --> 00:29:54,320
aspects of the mind that's why they're

836
00:29:56,950 --> 00:29:56,320
called psychedelics means psyche

837
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:56,960
revealing

838
00:30:01,590 --> 00:29:59,760
mind revealers that's what they are

839
00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:01,600
aldous huxley coined the term

840
00:30:06,549 --> 00:30:05,120
to know to give this idea that what

841
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:06,559
they're doing is revealing something

842
00:30:10,310 --> 00:30:08,799
about the nature of the mind

843
00:30:12,149 --> 00:30:10,320
one thing they do is shut down the

844
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:12,159
default mode network

845
00:30:17,909 --> 00:30:16,000
the chattering mind that goes on uh in

846
00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:17,919
all the time when we're ruminating or

847
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:20,240
worrying or being anxious or just

848
00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:21,840
thinking

849
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:24,240
they shut down the default mode network

850
00:30:27,669 --> 00:30:25,600
so does meditation

851
00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:27,679
and you know when people are in deep

852
00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:29,919
meditative states that also shuts down

853
00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:31,840
the default mode network

854
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:33,440
and when you shut down the chatter

855
00:30:39,029 --> 00:30:35,760
that's going on inside the mind

856
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:39,039
then some people would argue i would

857
00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:41,760
argue that the mind then becomes more

858
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:42,640
open

859
00:30:48,549 --> 00:30:46,240
to connecting with deeper or further

860
00:30:50,230 --> 00:30:48,559
or other forms of consciousness that are

861
00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:50,240
around us and

862
00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:51,679
of which we're apart but we're not

863
00:30:55,110 --> 00:30:53,360
normally aware because they're shut out

864
00:30:57,669 --> 00:30:55,120
by all this chatter

865
00:30:59,190 --> 00:30:57,679
just like you can see people in

866
00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:59,200
beautiful landscapes

867
00:31:02,389 --> 00:31:00,960
who just are completely unaware of the

868
00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:02,399
landscape because they're busy doing

869
00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:04,080
facebook on their smartphone or

870
00:31:06,950 --> 00:31:04,880
something their

871
00:31:09,669 --> 00:31:06,960
mind is completely occupied by this

872
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:09,679
foreground of chatter and distraction

873
00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:11,840
and um some would argue that

874
00:31:15,350 --> 00:31:13,360
psychedelics shut out

875
00:31:16,470 --> 00:31:15,360
this distraction which other methods can

876
00:31:20,389 --> 00:31:16,480
do too like

877
00:31:24,710 --> 00:31:20,399
near-death experiences through trauma

878
00:31:27,909 --> 00:31:24,720
um and meditation and so forth

879
00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:27,919
other spiritual practices um and

880
00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:30,000
opens up to seeing things that are there

881
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:31,679
all the time but which we don't normally

882
00:31:35,029 --> 00:31:32,000
see

883
00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:35,039
or experience so that's the world view

884
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:36,960
of people who take a more spiritual

885
00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:40,399
interpretation of these but

886
00:31:44,149 --> 00:31:42,240
you know again you're going to come back

887
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:44,159
to what people's world views are the way

888
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:46,720
they interact

889
00:31:50,070 --> 00:31:49,440
how do you see it well i see it in terms

890
00:31:54,149 --> 00:31:50,080
of

891
00:31:58,070 --> 00:31:54,159
we can

892
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:01,430
with visionary substances like um lsd

893
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:04,320
and ayahuasca where many people have

894
00:32:12,310 --> 00:32:11,590
experiences um i think what they do is

895
00:32:14,789 --> 00:32:12,320
open up

896
00:32:16,310 --> 00:32:14,799
the realm of the imagination we have

897
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:16,320
this imaginal realm

898
00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:18,960
anyway every night when we dream we're

899
00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:20,240
creating

900
00:32:24,070 --> 00:32:23,200
scenes that aren't the same as reality

901
00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:24,080
that are

902
00:32:30,230 --> 00:32:28,399
in some sense illusory um i think

903
00:32:31,509 --> 00:32:30,240
it's the same kind of faculty we have

904
00:32:34,230 --> 00:32:31,519
when we're dreaming

905
00:32:36,389 --> 00:32:34,240
but we enter it from the waking state in

906
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:36,399
a much more vivid and enhanced state

907
00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:39,679
through certain kinds of psychedelics

908
00:32:45,269 --> 00:32:42,880
now i think dmt um

909
00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:45,279
is produces something for some people

910
00:32:47,909 --> 00:32:46,000
more like

911
00:32:49,430 --> 00:32:47,919
a near-death experience it takes you

912
00:32:52,789 --> 00:32:49,440
beyond that realm

913
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:52,799
into some further realm of the mind or

914
00:32:59,110 --> 00:32:56,720
greater realm of consciousness um

915
00:33:01,350 --> 00:32:59,120
which is sort of beyond the realms that

916
00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:01,360
nsd would normally take you into which

917
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:02,080
are more

918
00:33:05,430 --> 00:33:04,240
like enhanced versions of the dream

919
00:33:10,149 --> 00:33:05,440
state

920
00:33:13,990 --> 00:33:10,159
unity of consciousness

921
00:33:15,669 --> 00:33:14,000
um so anyway these are

922
00:33:17,029 --> 00:33:15,679
different psychedelics work differently

923
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:17,039
for different people it's hard to

924
00:33:20,389 --> 00:33:17,760
generalize

925
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:20,399
but from what i've learned from talking

926
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:22,320
to people and reading about these things

927
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:22,960
and

928
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:26,240
partly through my own experience i think

929
00:33:29,669 --> 00:33:26,640
they're

930
00:33:31,990 --> 00:33:29,679
opening it up to these wider realms of

931
00:33:33,509 --> 00:33:32,000
experience and i think that actually one

932
00:33:34,789 --> 00:33:33,519
of the things that is causing the

933
00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:34,799
cultural shift

934
00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:36,880
that we're all talking about at the

935
00:33:40,470 --> 00:33:39,360
moment is psychedelics and if you read

936
00:33:42,789 --> 00:33:40,480
that book

937
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:42,799
came out last year by michael pollan on

938
00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:44,240
psychedelics called

939
00:33:48,389 --> 00:33:46,480
how to change your mind it was a new

940
00:33:51,269 --> 00:33:48,399
york times bestseller for months

941
00:33:52,230 --> 00:33:51,279
you may well have seen it um michael

942
00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:52,240
pollan

943
00:33:58,310 --> 00:33:55,600
uh is a scientific journalist

944
00:34:00,149 --> 00:33:58,320
and his other books on things like food

945
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:00,159
the omnivores dilemma

946
00:34:07,750 --> 00:34:03,279
his book on plants the botany of desire

947
00:34:09,510 --> 00:34:07,760
um it we did a book on the new science

948
00:34:12,069 --> 00:34:09,520
of psychedelics the research that's

949
00:34:14,869 --> 00:34:12,079
going on uh into the effects of

950
00:34:15,909 --> 00:34:14,879
psilocybin magic mushrooms in reducing

951
00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:15,919
depression

952
00:34:19,109 --> 00:34:18,480
uh in curing people who've got various

953
00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:19,119
mental

954
00:34:23,030 --> 00:34:21,280
illnesses these have therapeutic uses

955
00:34:25,750 --> 00:34:23,040
these psychedelics

956
00:34:27,669 --> 00:34:25,760
and as part of the book he says that he

957
00:34:29,109 --> 00:34:27,679
started the book as a materialist and

958
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:29,119
atheist

959
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:32,639
and um but he took psychedelics he felt

960
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:34,800
as an investigative journalist he should

961
00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:37,040
experience what he's writing about

962
00:34:41,430 --> 00:34:39,280
and by the end of the book he's become a

963
00:34:43,109 --> 00:34:41,440
kind of pan psychist you know he thinks

964
00:34:45,349 --> 00:34:43,119
consciousness is much more widely

965
00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:45,359
distributed in nature it's not just in

966
00:34:48,710 --> 00:34:46,720
human brains it's in

967
00:34:50,950 --> 00:34:48,720
trees and plants and animals in the

968
00:34:52,950 --> 00:34:50,960
earth in the natural world

969
00:34:54,389 --> 00:34:52,960
and i think many people who've obtained

970
00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:54,399
psychedelics undergo

971
00:34:59,349 --> 00:34:57,280
that kind of conversion experience where

972
00:35:01,270 --> 00:34:59,359
they realize it's not all just about us

973
00:35:02,950 --> 00:35:01,280
and about human brains

974
00:35:05,430 --> 00:35:02,960
and that then leads to a wider

975
00:35:07,349 --> 00:35:05,440
questioning of the materialist worldview

976
00:35:11,190 --> 00:35:07,359
and the scientific paradigm

977
00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:11,200
so my point is that most people change

978
00:35:15,430 --> 00:35:12,000
their minds

979
00:35:16,550 --> 00:35:15,440
as he did through experience rather than

980
00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:16,560
through argument

981
00:35:21,109 --> 00:35:19,040
he then becomes much more interested in

982
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:21,119
and psychist philosophy as a result of

983
00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:22,320
his own experience

984
00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:24,560
and his book after all is called how to

985
00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:26,720
change your mind

986
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:29,119
there is a sense when you were talking

987
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:30,480
about meditation

988
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:32,240
and given that this is an ancient

989
00:35:37,829 --> 00:35:34,720
practice that

990
00:35:40,870 --> 00:35:37,839
sort of the practices we have in society

991
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:40,880
that we do for reasons we know not of

992
00:35:46,630 --> 00:35:44,000
uh tend to be ahead of in some

993
00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:46,640
very serious sense the sciences so for

994
00:35:49,510 --> 00:35:47,440
example

995
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:49,520
we would wash our hands before we

996
00:35:53,589 --> 00:35:50,880
understood germ theory

997
00:35:55,430 --> 00:35:53,599
we would uh take the bark off of the

998
00:35:56,950 --> 00:35:55,440
aspirin tree to cure our headaches

999
00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:56,960
before we understood its chemical

1000
00:36:01,910 --> 00:35:58,560
composition

1001
00:36:05,030 --> 00:36:01,920
these practices pre-date

1002
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:05,040
many of the scientific reasons and uh

1003
00:36:09,990 --> 00:36:08,160
rationalizations as to why we do that

1004
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:10,000
is it for this do you believe that for

1005
00:36:15,750 --> 00:36:12,960
this reason the mystic practitioner

1006
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:15,760
will always be in some sense ahead of

1007
00:36:21,349 --> 00:36:16,320
the

1008
00:36:23,190 --> 00:36:21,359
yes i think when it comes to

1009
00:36:24,790 --> 00:36:23,200
understanding consciousness the people

1010
00:36:25,190 --> 00:36:24,800
who understand it best are the ones

1011
00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:25,200
who've

1012
00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:28,400
experienced it most systematically and

1013
00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:29,920
you know if you have a tibetan monk

1014
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:31,839
that's spent you know hours a day

1015
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:34,240
meditating for years

1016
00:36:38,069 --> 00:36:36,000
they're basically studying the nature of

1017
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:38,079
their own minds from within

1018
00:36:41,430 --> 00:36:39,680
they're going to understand more about

1019
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:41,440
it than someone who's done psychology

1020
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:43,119
101 at a university

1021
00:36:46,390 --> 00:36:45,839
and as an undergraduate uh even though

1022
00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:46,400
the

1023
00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:47,920
graduate is going to emerge with a

1024
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:49,839
degree that says they've got a degree in

1025
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:50,640
psychology

1026
00:36:54,230 --> 00:36:52,480
the tibetan monk who may have no degree

1027
00:36:55,349 --> 00:36:54,240
is going to have a vastly deeper

1028
00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:55,359
understanding

1029
00:37:01,030 --> 00:36:58,560
how to measure

1030
00:37:02,550 --> 00:37:01,040
brain waves with encephalographs and the

1031
00:37:04,630 --> 00:37:02,560
technologies of

1032
00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:04,640
measuring nerve impulses and that kind

1033
00:37:07,910 --> 00:37:06,000
of thing but

1034
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:07,920
in terms of the study of consciousness

1035
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:10,800
itself then they've gone far further

1036
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:12,960
um i mean what modern science is

1037
00:37:15,990 --> 00:37:14,880
mechanistic science is really good at

1038
00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:16,000
making machines

1039
00:37:20,710 --> 00:37:18,640
it's about its metaphor as machinery

1040
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:20,720
it's really good at machines we're

1041
00:37:24,069 --> 00:37:22,400
talking through a computer now and

1042
00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:24,079
through the internet and

1043
00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:26,800
science is unrivaled no tibetan monk

1044
00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:28,800
could possibly come up with a smartphone

1045
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:29,440
or

1046
00:37:35,190 --> 00:37:33,200
a you know an internet system you need

1047
00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:35,200
engineering science and technology for

1048
00:37:38,950 --> 00:37:36,560
that but when we come

1049
00:37:40,390 --> 00:37:38,960
to consciousness then i think they're

1050
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:40,400
far in advance

1051
00:37:43,750 --> 00:37:42,400
of anything that's come out of any

1052
00:37:46,390 --> 00:37:43,760
science lab

1053
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:46,400
that i've seen in terms of understanding

1054
00:37:51,829 --> 00:37:50,000
the true nature of the mind

1055
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:51,839
read this critique of the dog experiment

1056
00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:53,440
and i want to know what your response to

1057
00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:55,680
this is this is from richard wiseman

1058
00:37:58,870 --> 00:37:57,520
someone said he is not convinced he

1059
00:38:00,630 --> 00:37:58,880
argues keep as

1060
00:38:02,710 --> 00:38:00,640
in richard wiseman have we told people

1061
00:38:06,390 --> 00:38:02,720
what the dog experiment is

1062
00:38:08,790 --> 00:38:06,400
no let us please actually please

1063
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:08,800
uh well we should explain this to

1064
00:38:13,990 --> 00:38:10,160
because no one will know what we're

1065
00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:16,390
well i've i i've been interested in

1066
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:18,160
telepathy um

1067
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:20,560
for a long time and partly because i

1068
00:38:23,349 --> 00:38:21,440
think

1069
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:23,359
if you have a field theory of minds and

1070
00:38:26,230 --> 00:38:25,440
a field theory of social groups which i

1071
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:26,240
do

1072
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:28,480
then i would actually predict telepathy

1073
00:38:32,710 --> 00:38:30,160
as a form of communication between

1074
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:32,720
bonded members of social groups

1075
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:36,079
and when i thought about this first i

1076
00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:37,680
realized it would apply to

1077
00:38:43,349 --> 00:38:40,800
animals animal groups like

1078
00:38:45,270 --> 00:38:43,359
packs of wolves or stalks of flocks of

1079
00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:45,280
birds or schools of fish

1080
00:38:48,950 --> 00:38:46,960
should be related through a field that

1081
00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:48,960
relates the individual members of the

1082
00:38:52,870 --> 00:38:50,880
group

1083
00:38:54,710 --> 00:38:52,880
and they'd remain connected by this

1084
00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:54,720
field even at a distance which would

1085
00:38:57,589 --> 00:38:56,560
mean a change in one could affect the

1086
00:38:59,670 --> 00:38:57,599
others

1087
00:39:01,750 --> 00:38:59,680
similar analogous to quantum

1088
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:01,760
non-locality where particles have been

1089
00:39:04,390 --> 00:39:03,520
part of the same system when they move

1090
00:39:06,430 --> 00:39:04,400
apart

1091
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:06,440
uh if one changes the other

1092
00:39:11,190 --> 00:39:07,680
instantaneously

1093
00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:11,200
uh is it takes up a different position

1094
00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:11,680
like

1095
00:39:16,230 --> 00:39:14,720
one polarization polarized photon the

1096
00:39:18,230 --> 00:39:16,240
other one will immediately adopt the

1097
00:39:21,030 --> 00:39:18,240
ultimate the opposite polarity

1098
00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:21,040
quantum non-locality or entanglement so

1099
00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:22,880
something like that i predicted would be

1100
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:24,320
going on with animals

1101
00:39:28,230 --> 00:39:26,160
so then i thought well no one's looked

1102
00:39:30,550 --> 00:39:28,240
at telepathy and animals

1103
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:30,560
in the human realm it gets sort of

1104
00:39:33,670 --> 00:39:32,560
associated in some people's minds with

1105
00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:33,680
sort of spooky

1106
00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:37,200
green light imaginary

1107
00:39:42,069 --> 00:39:40,320
star superstition and so forth treat it

1108
00:39:44,069 --> 00:39:42,079
scientifically if it exists it should

1109
00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:44,079
have evolved if animals if it exists it

1110
00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:45,920
should be bearing animals

1111
00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:48,400
then i ask people who have animals dogs

1112
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:50,880
cats parrots horses and other animals

1113
00:39:55,109 --> 00:39:52,640
if they'd ever experience their animals

1114
00:39:57,510 --> 00:39:55,119
picking up their thoughts or intentions

1115
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:57,520
and overwhelmingly people i got i've had

1116
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:59,440
more than six thousand case histories on

1117
00:40:02,870 --> 00:40:00,960
my database

1118
00:40:04,309 --> 00:40:02,880
yes lots of people have noticed it and

1119
00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:04,319
one of the most common

1120
00:40:07,829 --> 00:40:07,040
phenomena and one of the most testable

1121
00:40:10,390 --> 00:40:07,839
is

1122
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:10,400
um dogs that know when their owners are

1123
00:40:13,910 --> 00:40:11,200
coming home

1124
00:40:15,670 --> 00:40:13,920
about 50 of dogs going waiters door or

1125
00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:15,680
window while the person they're most

1126
00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:17,920
bonded to is on the way home from work

1127
00:40:21,829 --> 00:40:20,000
or from holiday or whatever

1128
00:40:23,109 --> 00:40:21,839
members of the household know when

1129
00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:23,119
they're coming because the dog goes and

1130
00:40:26,069 --> 00:40:24,720
waits for them

1131
00:40:28,309 --> 00:40:26,079
this happens even if they come at

1132
00:40:30,470 --> 00:40:28,319
non-routine times even if they come in

1133
00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:30,480
non-familiar vehicles

1134
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:33,839
so um the skeptics said to me oh that

1135
00:40:38,230 --> 00:40:36,240
can't be true it's impossible

1136
00:40:39,589 --> 00:40:38,240
it's just make-believe people dote on

1137
00:40:41,589 --> 00:40:39,599
their pets and they imagine

1138
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:41,599
it's just a coincidence they forget all

1139
00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:43,920
the times they're wrong and so forth

1140
00:40:48,150 --> 00:40:45,839
um they hadn't done any experiments but

1141
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:48,160
they confidently dismissed it so i set

1142
00:40:52,710 --> 00:40:49,760
up an experiment

1143
00:40:55,109 --> 00:40:52,720
where we filmed the place a dog waited

1144
00:40:58,150 --> 00:40:55,119
this is a dog that regularly did it

1145
00:41:00,069 --> 00:40:58,160
um we filmed the place the whole whole

1146
00:41:01,829 --> 00:41:00,079
time leona was out so we could see

1147
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:01,839
objectively when the dog went to the

1148
00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:03,359
door or window

1149
00:41:07,030 --> 00:41:06,160
um i they only went at least five miles

1150
00:41:09,270 --> 00:41:07,040
away

1151
00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:09,280
dogs even the most sensitive dogs can't

1152
00:41:13,030 --> 00:41:10,720
smell things for more

1153
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:13,040
more than about half a mile away and

1154
00:41:15,750 --> 00:41:14,480
then the wind has to be in the right

1155
00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:15,760
direction

1156
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:17,920
um they didn't know when they were

1157
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:20,000
coming home i told them by mobile

1158
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:22,319
phone at randomly chosen time go home

1159
00:41:26,069 --> 00:41:23,200
now

1160
00:41:28,150 --> 00:41:26,079
um and they didn't travel in a familiar

1161
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:28,160
vehicle they took public transport or

1162
00:41:31,829 --> 00:41:29,440
traveled on

1163
00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:31,839
borrowed bicycles or in taxes different

1164
00:41:34,950 --> 00:41:33,280
taxi each time

1165
00:41:36,470 --> 00:41:34,960
so there were no familiar signs no

1166
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:36,480
routine the people at home didn't know

1167
00:41:39,829 --> 00:41:37,839
when they were coming they didn't know

1168
00:41:41,589 --> 00:41:39,839
in advance when they were coming home

1169
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:41,599
and in these experiments over and over

1170
00:41:46,630 --> 00:41:44,160
again in hundreds of trials

1171
00:41:47,349 --> 00:41:46,640
the dog went and waited at the door for

1172
00:41:49,349 --> 00:41:47,359
10

1173
00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:49,359
minutes before the person came home

1174
00:41:52,309 --> 00:41:50,960
there were a few times they didn't do it

1175
00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:52,319
when the dog was sick

1176
00:41:57,190 --> 00:41:55,520
or mostly the few exceptions were when

1177
00:41:58,069 --> 00:41:57,200
there was a on heat in the next

1178
00:42:01,030 --> 00:41:58,079
apartment

1179
00:42:01,990 --> 00:42:01,040
so it proved the dog could be distracted

1180
00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:02,000
but most of the time

1181
00:42:07,750 --> 00:42:05,280
highly significant statistically i then

1182
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:07,760
appeared on a tv program in britain that

1183
00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:09,520
described this research and they showed

1184
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:11,200
one of these experiments

1185
00:42:16,309 --> 00:42:14,160
richard wiseman is a hardcore

1186
00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:16,319
materialist atheist skeptic type

1187
00:42:20,069 --> 00:42:18,400
who is a member of the committee for

1188
00:42:23,430 --> 00:42:20,079
skeptical inquiry a

1189
00:42:25,190 --> 00:42:23,440
militant campaigning skeptic so

1190
00:42:27,430 --> 00:42:25,200
he criticized it saying oh it's just

1191
00:42:29,109 --> 00:42:27,440
routine and they hear the car sounds

1192
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:29,119
and i'd already explained you know we

1193
00:42:31,750 --> 00:42:30,640
that's the first thing we thought of we

1194
00:42:33,349 --> 00:42:31,760
spent a year

1195
00:42:35,270 --> 00:42:33,359
doing hundreds of experiments showing

1196
00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:35,280
it's not but you it's still on tv you

1197
00:42:39,109 --> 00:42:37,119
said well it's obviously just routine

1198
00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:39,119
so i invited him to do experiments with

1199
00:42:43,670 --> 00:42:40,720
the dog himself

1200
00:42:45,109 --> 00:42:43,680
he did with his own car his own

1201
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:45,119
randomizing system

1202
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:48,160
i lent him one of my cameras um he did

1203
00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:49,760
three experiments with the dog in the

1204
00:42:53,750 --> 00:42:51,280
same place i'd done it

1205
00:42:56,069 --> 00:42:53,760
in every one of them the dog was waiting

1206
00:42:58,790 --> 00:42:56,079
when she came home the owner came home

1207
00:42:59,990 --> 00:42:58,800
it was at the window 78 of the time when

1208
00:43:03,349 --> 00:43:00,000
she was on the way home

1209
00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:03,359
of that period 78 was at winter

1210
00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:05,200
when she wasn't coming home it was the

1211
00:43:09,109 --> 00:43:07,440
window an average of four percent of the

1212
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:09,119
time it occasionally went to look at

1213
00:43:15,030 --> 00:43:12,720
passing cats as it did in my experiments

1214
00:43:16,870 --> 00:43:15,040
and to my astonishment wiseman then

1215
00:43:19,030 --> 00:43:16,880
appeared on television and in the media

1216
00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:19,040
to saying he'd refuted the psychic dog

1217
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:20,880
phenomenon

1218
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:24,000
and that the dog had gone to the window

1219
00:43:27,829 --> 00:43:26,640
before she came home and therefore it

1220
00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:27,839
failed the test

1221
00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:30,400
when i pointed out to him that actually

1222
00:43:35,109 --> 00:43:32,720
after his supposed failing of the test

1223
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:35,119
when it had gone to the window for some

1224
00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:36,960
other reason not waiting just going for

1225
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:38,240
a brief visit

1226
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:40,880
um um that you look at the rest of his

1227
00:43:44,870 --> 00:43:42,800
own data and they showed this massive

1228
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:44,880
effect statistically significant

1229
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:46,560
he said oh you can't look at that data

1230
00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:48,480
that's reading the date reading

1231
00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:51,280
data patterns into the data after the

1232
00:43:56,069 --> 00:43:53,520
dog's already failed the test

1233
00:43:58,069 --> 00:43:56,079
and now everyone who's looked at richard

1234
00:44:00,470 --> 00:43:58,079
wiseman's analysis of the data

1235
00:44:02,470 --> 00:44:00,480
and who's looked at his data it's now

1236
00:44:03,109 --> 00:44:02,480
been discussed in several books there's

1237
00:44:06,150 --> 00:44:03,119
a book called

1238
00:44:07,109 --> 00:44:06,160
randy's prize about materialists and

1239
00:44:10,069 --> 00:44:07,119
skeptics

1240
00:44:11,990 --> 00:44:10,079
there's a book called heretics by

1241
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:12,000
somebody who interviewed wiseman went

1242
00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:13,280
into this whole story

1243
00:44:17,109 --> 00:44:16,480
it's become a classic case of skeptical

1244
00:44:20,150 --> 00:44:17,119
treatment

1245
00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:20,160
of evidence and distortion of what went

1246
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:21,040
on

1247
00:44:25,270 --> 00:44:23,760
so i mean read what he said and i'll

1248
00:44:28,150 --> 00:44:25,280
tell you in this context

1249
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:28,160
what it's about sure i'll paraphrase for

1250
00:44:30,309 --> 00:44:28,800
brevity

1251
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:30,319
he essentially said that it's not

1252
00:44:33,430 --> 00:44:31,680
surprising that the dog would be on the

1253
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:33,440
porch before it comes home because

1254
00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:36,480
that it just the longer the

1255
00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:38,480
owner is away the more likely the dog is

1256
00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:40,240
to wait on the porch

1257
00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:42,880
and it's more evidence of the dog

1258
00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:44,480
anticipating the arrival of the owner

1259
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:46,720
instead of knowing through psychedelic

1260
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:47,920
mystery sorry through

1261
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:50,400
psychic abilities and then he goes on

1262
00:44:53,750 --> 00:44:51,920
further to criticize that

1263
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:53,760
your work hasn't been peer-reviewed in

1264
00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:55,280
peer-reviewed journals

1265
00:44:59,670 --> 00:44:58,079
but only in books and that this means

1266
00:45:00,950 --> 00:44:59,680
that your methodology has not been fully

1267
00:45:01,910 --> 00:45:00,960
described making it difficult to

1268
00:45:05,109 --> 00:45:01,920
properly assess

1269
00:45:07,109 --> 00:45:05,119
the validity of the methodology well you

1270
00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:07,119
see unfortunately this is a perfect

1271
00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:08,400
example of lying

1272
00:45:12,630 --> 00:45:11,520
and deception and his phd thesis was on

1273
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:12,640
deception

1274
00:45:19,990 --> 00:45:17,440
magician he's a skilled deceiver

1275
00:45:21,109 --> 00:45:20,000
and let me explain why that's deceptive

1276
00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:21,119
first of all

1277
00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:23,520
the dog doesn't go to the window more

1278
00:45:27,109 --> 00:45:25,520
and more as time goes on we did control

1279
00:45:28,069 --> 00:45:27,119
experiments where the owner didn't come

1280
00:45:29,990 --> 00:45:28,079
home at all

1281
00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:30,000
during the whole experimental period of

1282
00:45:32,870 --> 00:45:31,119
more than four hours

1283
00:45:35,190 --> 00:45:32,880
and it doesn't go it's just more or less

1284
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:35,200
a flat line he's knows that he's seen

1285
00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:38,240
the graphs i've shown in the data

1286
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:40,240
secondly all the data from these

1287
00:45:43,109 --> 00:45:41,520
experiments is published in

1288
00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:43,119
peer-reviewed journals

1289
00:45:46,230 --> 00:45:45,200
and it's all on my website you can

1290
00:45:48,309 --> 00:45:46,240
actually see

1291
00:45:49,950 --> 00:45:48,319
pdfs of the papers in peer-reviewed

1292
00:45:53,270 --> 00:45:49,960
journals website

1293
00:45:56,230 --> 00:45:53,280
sheldrate.org research section

1294
00:45:57,430 --> 00:45:56,240
unexplained animal powers telepathy with

1295
00:46:02,069 --> 00:45:57,440
dogs

1296
00:46:04,470 --> 00:46:02,079
all the data quantitative data there um

1297
00:46:06,470 --> 00:46:04,480
there was a film done from an austrian

1298
00:46:07,829 --> 00:46:06,480
television company which you can also

1299
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:07,839
see on my website a

1300
00:46:11,270 --> 00:46:09,760
skeptical science unit where they showed

1301
00:46:14,630 --> 00:46:11,280
this phenomenon

1302
00:46:17,190 --> 00:46:14,640
very clearly um so

1303
00:46:17,829 --> 00:46:17,200
it is in peer-reviewed journals uh it

1304
00:46:20,150 --> 00:46:17,839
has been

1305
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:20,160
subjected to scientific scrutiny it has

1306
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:22,000
been done in the correct way

1307
00:46:25,670 --> 00:46:24,960
um i have taken into account you know

1308
00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:25,680
the

1309
00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:30,160
wiseman's own data show this

1310
00:46:34,630 --> 00:46:32,800
and yet you see like you reading the

1311
00:46:37,030 --> 00:46:34,640
kind if you read wikipedia which is

1312
00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:37,040
being captured by skeptics

1313
00:46:41,750 --> 00:46:39,040
all the areas to do with me psychic

1314
00:46:43,270 --> 00:46:41,760
research alternative medicine

1315
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:43,280
they're all full of this kind of

1316
00:46:46,630 --> 00:46:44,800
misinformation so

1317
00:46:48,309 --> 00:46:46,640
you're i mean you're an open-minded chap

1318
00:46:49,990 --> 00:46:48,319
you want to find out about this you go

1319
00:46:51,349 --> 00:46:50,000
and look it up online and that's what

1320
00:46:54,550 --> 00:46:51,359
you find

1321
00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:54,560
the reality is completely different and

1322
00:46:58,069 --> 00:46:56,640
what we're seeing is particularly with

1323
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:58,079
wikipedia is

1324
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:00,400
the defense of a materialist paradigm by

1325
00:47:06,069 --> 00:47:03,359
the systematic and deliberate distortion

1326
00:47:06,870 --> 00:47:06,079
of evidence filtering out positive

1327
00:47:09,910 --> 00:47:06,880
evidence

1328
00:47:11,910 --> 00:47:09,920
putting in snide incorrect results like

1329
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:11,920
sneering remarks like that it's not in

1330
00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:13,920
peer-reviewed journals online books

1331
00:47:17,190 --> 00:47:16,640
absolutely untrue uh and he knows it's

1332
00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:17,200
untrue

1333
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:19,280
i mean he's seen my peer-reviewed papers

1334
00:47:22,470 --> 00:47:21,760
i mean in private when i talk to richard

1335
00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:22,480
wiseman

1336
00:47:25,750 --> 00:47:24,400
he's a perfectly reasonable personally

1337
00:47:28,710 --> 00:47:25,760
he's quite funny

1338
00:47:29,190 --> 00:47:28,720
um but as soon as he gets onto his sort

1339
00:47:32,309 --> 00:47:29,200
of

1340
00:47:35,349 --> 00:47:32,319
podium as the media skeptic

1341
00:47:35,910 --> 00:47:35,359
it's astonishing that he can say things

1342
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:35,920
like that

1343
00:47:39,510 --> 00:47:38,240
and get away with it well he doesn't get

1344
00:47:41,589 --> 00:47:39,520
away with it actually

1345
00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:41,599
look at a website called skeptical about

1346
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:42,720
skeptics

1347
00:47:47,430 --> 00:47:44,720
and you'll find a dossier on his

1348
00:47:50,829 --> 00:47:47,440
deceptions in this and other areas

1349
00:47:54,069 --> 00:47:50,839
and um there's also um a video

1350
00:47:55,990 --> 00:47:54,079
online uh which shows

1351
00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:56,000
how he distorted the evidence about the

1352
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:58,160
dog experiment there's clips from tv

1353
00:48:01,670 --> 00:47:59,760
shows where he's

1354
00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:01,680
he claims the dog just goes to the door

1355
00:48:05,349 --> 00:48:03,520
over and over again

1356
00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:05,359
it's showing the same footage twice in

1357
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:08,640
one case to create the illusion

1358
00:48:11,829 --> 00:48:11,200
this has all been exposed over and over

1359
00:48:14,950 --> 00:48:11,839
again

1360
00:48:16,150 --> 00:48:14,960
but you won't get to realize the

1361
00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:16,160
exposure and

1362
00:48:19,750 --> 00:48:18,240
if you look at things like wikipedia

1363
00:48:22,390 --> 00:48:19,760
which as i say

1364
00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:22,400
being captured by groups of skeptical

1365
00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:23,440
activists called

1366
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:25,599
guerrilla skeptics on wikipedia and

1367
00:48:28,790 --> 00:48:26,640
other um

1368
00:48:30,230 --> 00:48:28,800
activist groups i mean i'm not making

1369
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:30,240
this up they have a website

1370
00:48:34,309 --> 00:48:33,040
uh guerrilla skeptics on wikipedia i'm

1371
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:34,319
not paranoid

1372
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:37,200
um but when i exposed the guerrilla

1373
00:48:42,069 --> 00:48:39,760
skeptics on wikipedia in the blog

1374
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:42,079
three days later they just took down my

1375
00:48:45,030 --> 00:48:43,440
own biography page and they've

1376
00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:45,040
controlled it ever since they stripped

1377
00:48:48,710 --> 00:48:46,480
me of a phd

1378
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:48,720
they said i was a pseudoscientist they

1379
00:48:52,950 --> 00:48:51,040
removed all my academic qualifications

1380
00:48:54,549 --> 00:48:52,960
they stated i had no papers in

1381
00:48:57,270 --> 00:48:54,559
peer-reviewed journals

1382
00:48:57,829 --> 00:48:57,280
a few people fought back and managed to

1383
00:49:00,150 --> 00:48:57,839
get

1384
00:49:01,670 --> 00:49:00,160
at some of the most gross just

1385
00:49:05,190 --> 00:49:01,680
distortions corrected

1386
00:49:08,470 --> 00:49:05,200
but um they're still in control of this

1387
00:49:10,230 --> 00:49:08,480
biography page and so when people

1388
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:10,240
students and others who are trying to

1389
00:49:15,829 --> 00:49:12,480
get a sense of what's going on the kind

1390
00:49:19,270 --> 00:49:15,839
of area you two are exploring

1391
00:49:20,470 --> 00:49:19,280
world views paradigms the view you get

1392
00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:20,480
through the regular

1393
00:49:26,069 --> 00:49:23,520
orthodox scientific educational system

1394
00:49:28,790 --> 00:49:26,079
and through media like wikipedia is

1395
00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:28,800
subject to systematic distortion

1396
00:49:32,150 --> 00:49:30,400
and i mean that's just what happens when

1397
00:49:33,030 --> 00:49:32,160
you have a paradigm a paradigm is a

1398
00:49:35,270 --> 00:49:33,040
worldview

1399
00:49:36,549 --> 00:49:35,280
people who believe in it think it's true

1400
00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:36,559
anything doesn't fit in

1401
00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:39,200
with it is marginalized treated as

1402
00:49:43,109 --> 00:49:40,240
heresy

1403
00:49:45,190 --> 00:49:43,119
um excluded um and that's what's

1404
00:49:45,750 --> 00:49:45,200
happening and that's just the way things

1405
00:49:47,430 --> 00:49:45,760
are

1406
00:49:49,430 --> 00:49:47,440
it's what happened to the theory of

1407
00:49:51,270 --> 00:49:49,440
continental drift it's what happens to

1408
00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:51,280
all sorts of theories in science

1409
00:49:58,309 --> 00:49:54,480
some of them are false but um the

1410
00:50:01,430 --> 00:49:58,319
the this kind of um doctrinaire

1411
00:50:03,750 --> 00:50:01,440
uh dogmatism is is something

1412
00:50:05,510 --> 00:50:03,760
in my view holds back true scientific

1413
00:50:08,069 --> 00:50:05,520
inquiry

1414
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:08,079
there is a sense after talking about all

1415
00:50:11,829 --> 00:50:09,520
this uh

1416
00:50:12,630 --> 00:50:11,839
dogs waiting for their owners to come

1417
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:12,640
home

1418
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:16,000
i'm reminded of argos the odysseus's dog

1419
00:50:19,109 --> 00:50:18,160
who waited for him after 20 years or so

1420
00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:19,119
the myth goes

1421
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:21,359
and then finally passed after seeing his

1422
00:50:24,630 --> 00:50:22,800
master

1423
00:50:26,230 --> 00:50:24,640
do you believe and just because we do

1424
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:26,240
have to wrap up uh

1425
00:50:29,589 --> 00:50:28,160
so very briefly what do you believe is

1426
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:29,599
the role of myth

1427
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:33,440
in exposing these uh truths

1428
00:50:38,150 --> 00:50:35,599
for highlighting these truths is there

1429
00:50:40,230 --> 00:50:38,160
any validity to men

1430
00:50:41,430 --> 00:50:40,240
well myths are stories that make sense

1431
00:50:43,829 --> 00:50:41,440
of the world for us

1432
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:43,839
and um they try and explain the way

1433
00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:45,119
things are

1434
00:50:48,549 --> 00:50:47,200
in terms of stories about what happened

1435
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:48,559
in the past

1436
00:50:51,829 --> 00:50:50,880
and i think they're absolutely essential

1437
00:50:53,510 --> 00:50:51,839
for uh

1438
00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:53,520
we have to we make sense of the world

1439
00:50:57,190 --> 00:50:55,040
through stories

1440
00:50:58,790 --> 00:50:57,200
and you know there will be people who'll

1441
00:51:00,230 --> 00:50:58,800
tell you world science is different

1442
00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:00,240
science is the truth

1443
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:02,880
but actually the big bang theory is our

1444
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:04,720
modern creation myth

1445
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:08,000
um you know there's lots of archaic

1446
00:51:12,710 --> 00:51:10,640
creation myths that say the world grew

1447
00:51:14,710 --> 00:51:12,720
from the hatching of a cosmic egg

1448
00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:14,720
and the cosmic egg gave rise to the

1449
00:51:19,270 --> 00:51:17,119
organism of the cosmos that grew

1450
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:19,280
uh from this hatchet hatching of the

1451
00:51:23,589 --> 00:51:20,400
cosmic egg

1452
00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:23,599
iranian is the hindu myth of the

1453
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:25,760
hatching of the cosmic egg

1454
00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:28,240
the golden egg from which the cosmos

1455
00:51:31,990 --> 00:51:29,920
comes well the big bang theory is

1456
00:51:33,589 --> 00:51:32,000
a modern scientific version of that

1457
00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:33,599
cosmogonic myth

1458
00:51:37,349 --> 00:51:35,440
and nobody was around at the time of the

1459
00:51:39,349 --> 00:51:37,359
big bang to see it

1460
00:51:41,589 --> 00:51:39,359
it's not as if it was carefully observed

1461
00:51:42,870 --> 00:51:41,599
and written up in full colour photos to

1462
00:51:45,589 --> 00:51:42,880
scientific american

1463
00:51:47,270 --> 00:51:45,599
by on the spot observers the whole thing

1464
00:51:49,910 --> 00:51:47,280
is

1465
00:51:51,270 --> 00:51:49,920
a theoretical projection of the way we

1466
00:51:54,069 --> 00:51:51,280
see the world now

1467
00:51:56,230 --> 00:51:54,079
basically the universe is expanding so

1468
00:51:58,470 --> 00:51:56,240
if you scroll it back you get to a point

1469
00:52:02,150 --> 00:51:58,480
ultimately where it all collapses in

1470
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:02,160
to the big bang the original point that

1471
00:52:06,630 --> 00:52:04,640
that world view assumes that the laws of

1472
00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:06,640
nature have always been exactly the same

1473
00:52:11,030 --> 00:52:09,119
i don't think they are but anyway i'm

1474
00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:11,040
perfectly happy to go along with the big

1475
00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:11,440
bang

1476
00:52:15,109 --> 00:52:13,200
as a creation myth but i don't think

1477
00:52:17,910 --> 00:52:15,119
it's just literal truth

1478
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:17,920
um i think it's the best story we've got

1479
00:52:22,390 --> 00:52:19,280
at the moment

1480
00:52:22,950 --> 00:52:22,400
and um you know there's a lot in science

1481
00:52:26,069 --> 00:52:22,960
which

1482
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:26,079
has this storytelling aspect i mean the

1483
00:52:29,910 --> 00:52:26,960
selfish gene

1484
00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:29,920
story tells us that dna controls life

1485
00:52:41,109 --> 00:52:30,480
and

1486
00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:41,119
subject he's making up myths about dna

1487
00:52:46,069 --> 00:52:43,520
it's not scientific language to say dna

1488
00:52:48,549 --> 00:52:46,079
is selfish and ruthless and competitive

1489
00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:48,559
and we have survival machines that jeans

1490
00:52:54,069 --> 00:52:50,720
have built to live in and stuff

1491
00:52:55,990 --> 00:52:54,079
um this is all storytelling um

1492
00:52:57,990 --> 00:52:56,000
it happens in that case it's very bad

1493
00:52:59,910 --> 00:52:58,000
storytelling because

1494
00:53:01,270 --> 00:52:59,920
genes have been graciously overrated and

1495
00:53:04,710 --> 00:53:01,280
we now know through

1496
00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:04,720
the study of epigenetic inheritance that

1497
00:53:08,549 --> 00:53:07,440
a lot of inheritance is not based simply

1498
00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:08,559
on genes

1499
00:53:12,069 --> 00:53:11,359
there are other factors involved so i

1500
00:53:14,710 --> 00:53:12,079
would say

1501
00:53:16,150 --> 00:53:14,720
we have to have stories and some stories

1502
00:53:19,190 --> 00:53:16,160
are better than others

1503
00:53:19,750 --> 00:53:19,200
and but it's not as if on one hand

1504
00:53:21,349 --> 00:53:19,760
you've got

1505
00:53:23,190 --> 00:53:21,359
ancient myths which are sort of

1506
00:53:25,990 --> 00:53:23,200
superstitions and on the other hand

1507
00:53:27,750 --> 00:53:26,000
you've got science which is true that's

1508
00:53:30,549 --> 00:53:27,760
an incredibly naive view

1509
00:53:31,190 --> 00:53:30,559
and most scientists who believe science

1510
00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:31,200
is true

1511
00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:34,000
are incredibly naive um you know they

1512
00:53:37,510 --> 00:53:36,000
think they have a superior belief system

1513
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:37,520
to everybody else in fact

1514
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:39,200
they don't even recognize they have a

1515
00:53:43,750 --> 00:53:41,280
belief system they think they know the

1516
00:53:45,589 --> 00:53:43,760
truth everyone else has beliefs

1517
00:53:47,349 --> 00:53:45,599
right there's something called lobs

1518
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:47,359
theorem which says that if you believe

1519
00:53:50,549 --> 00:53:48,720
in your own consistency you

1520
00:53:52,309 --> 00:53:50,559
automatically become inconsistent which

1521
00:53:53,270 --> 00:53:52,319
is related to girdles and completeness

1522
00:53:55,670 --> 00:53:53,280
theorem

1523
00:53:58,470 --> 00:53:55,680
so also what i was saying earlier about

1524
00:54:00,950 --> 00:53:58,480
the belief system of materialists

1525
00:54:02,870 --> 00:54:00,960
because their in-belief system actually

1526
00:54:05,109 --> 00:54:02,880
makes their own belief in materialism

1527
00:54:06,950 --> 00:54:05,119
highly problematic

1528
00:54:09,670 --> 00:54:06,960
there is something to be said about

1529
00:54:12,069 --> 00:54:09,680
scientists having their own

1530
00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:12,079
a sense dogmatism against religion and

1531
00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:13,760
what they consider to be supernatural so

1532
00:54:17,270 --> 00:54:15,040
if you say is there a creator

1533
00:54:18,790 --> 00:54:17,280
no no is there someone pretty much

1534
00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:18,800
watching us no are we in the mind of god

1535
00:54:21,430 --> 00:54:19,599
no

1536
00:54:22,870 --> 00:54:21,440
is there is it possible we're in a

1537
00:54:25,910 --> 00:54:22,880
simulation yes

1538
00:54:27,349 --> 00:54:25,920
well we're created by that simulation

1539
00:54:27,910 --> 00:54:27,359
and in a sense that simulation is

1540
00:54:31,430 --> 00:54:27,920
watching

1541
00:54:33,430 --> 00:54:31,440
well what's the difference between

1542
00:54:36,069 --> 00:54:33,440
they're willing to believe one because

1543
00:54:38,150 --> 00:54:36,079
it's more palatable to the scientists

1544
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:38,160
and furthermore how do you decipher

1545
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:40,000
between evidence that is credible and

1546
00:54:43,109 --> 00:54:41,040
evidence that is not

1547
00:54:44,630 --> 00:54:43,119
credible what is your epistemology in

1548
00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:44,640
all of this

1549
00:54:49,109 --> 00:54:47,119
okay well first the the the um the

1550
00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:49,119
worldview thing you see

1551
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:51,280
i mean i personally find the simulation

1552
00:54:55,190 --> 00:54:53,280
theory pretty implausible because it

1553
00:54:57,349 --> 00:54:55,200
implies the universe is a gigantic

1554
00:54:58,630 --> 00:54:57,359
computer with some kind of programmers

1555
00:55:00,390 --> 00:54:58,640
simulating things

1556
00:55:01,829 --> 00:55:00,400
i think that's such an anthropocentric

1557
00:55:04,470 --> 00:55:01,839
metaphor um

1558
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:04,480
i you know the whole mechanistic theory

1559
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:06,480
is anthropocentric only humans make

1560
00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:07,520
machines

1561
00:55:11,829 --> 00:55:09,680
and only modern industrial civilizations

1562
00:55:13,750 --> 00:55:11,839
are so obsessed with machinery

1563
00:55:15,589 --> 00:55:13,760
that they can assume that the whole of

1564
00:55:16,789 --> 00:55:15,599
the universe is nothing but machinery

1565
00:55:19,589 --> 00:55:16,799
it's unbelievably

1566
00:55:20,789 --> 00:55:19,599
provincial even though they supremely

1567
00:55:24,069 --> 00:55:20,799
objective

1568
00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:24,079
and so the um this world view of the

1569
00:55:28,470 --> 00:55:25,280
simulation

1570
00:55:30,309 --> 00:55:28,480
uh they it's plausible because to people

1571
00:55:32,309 --> 00:55:30,319
who believe in the mechanistic theory

1572
00:55:33,990 --> 00:55:32,319
because it sounds technological and

1573
00:55:37,190 --> 00:55:34,000
computer-based and they're in

1574
00:55:39,030 --> 00:55:37,200
favor of that but basically it's saying

1575
00:55:40,309 --> 00:55:39,040
the same thing as one of the ancient

1576
00:55:43,190 --> 00:55:40,319
hindu myths

1577
00:55:45,349 --> 00:55:43,200
the idea that vishnu lies down the god

1578
00:55:47,910 --> 00:55:45,359
vishnu lies down to sleep

1579
00:55:49,910 --> 00:55:47,920
and he has a dream and that dream is

1580
00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:49,920
this universe and we're within vishnu's

1581
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:50,720
dream

1582
00:55:54,950 --> 00:55:53,040
and then eventually traditionally wakes

1583
00:55:55,589 --> 00:55:54,960
up this universe disappears and he lies

1584
00:55:58,230 --> 00:55:55,599
down

1585
00:55:59,829 --> 00:55:58,240
and dreams another universe i mean i

1586
00:56:03,030 --> 00:55:59,839
much prefer that myth

1587
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:03,040
to the simulation myth and the vedas

1588
00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:05,119
start to interrupt but in the vedas it

1589
00:56:08,390 --> 00:56:06,160
is written

1590
00:56:09,670 --> 00:56:08,400
that that thing breathless breathed by

1591
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:09,680
its own nature

1592
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:12,160
right and that the idea that the gods

1593
00:56:15,030 --> 00:56:13,200
came after

1594
00:56:16,630 --> 00:56:15,040
this world's creation that they they

1595
00:56:18,710 --> 00:56:16,640
themselves not even know

1596
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:18,720
this world's creation would you say that

1597
00:56:22,150 --> 00:56:20,400
this ties

1598
00:56:23,589 --> 00:56:22,160
well what i'd say is that the the

1599
00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:23,599
deepest views in

1600
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:26,960
hindu and christian and islamic and

1601
00:56:33,270 --> 00:56:30,400
other traditions and jewish traditions

1602
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:33,280
in buddhist traditions are that there's

1603
00:56:37,990 --> 00:56:34,000
a

1604
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:38,000
things from which things

1605
00:56:42,870 --> 00:56:41,839
come and uh we connect with that through

1606
00:56:46,150 --> 00:56:42,880
meditation through

1607
00:56:46,549 --> 00:56:46,160
material altered states of consciousness

1608
00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:46,559
through

1609
00:56:50,150 --> 00:56:48,799
mystical experiences we can have a

1610
00:56:53,670 --> 00:56:50,160
direct connection

1611
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:53,680
with that realm um

1612
00:56:58,390 --> 00:56:57,119
and that our models of reality if you

1613
00:57:00,710 --> 00:56:58,400
then say well

1614
00:57:01,990 --> 00:57:00,720
the sun is a god or the moon's goddess

1615
00:57:04,710 --> 00:57:02,000
or something like that

1616
00:57:05,910 --> 00:57:04,720
these are human ways of modeling this

1617
00:57:08,710 --> 00:57:05,920
reality explaining

1618
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:08,720
in terms of stories and myths and in

1619
00:57:11,829 --> 00:57:10,000
that sense the gods

1620
00:57:13,990 --> 00:57:11,839
in in a polytheistic system where you

1621
00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:14,000
have gods of weather and gods of wind

1622
00:57:18,630 --> 00:57:16,480
and gods of sea and gods of sky and gods

1623
00:57:22,390 --> 00:57:18,640
or goddesses of earth and so on

1624
00:57:26,230 --> 00:57:22,400
um these are all sort of projections

1625
00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:26,240
and and creations in our own mind but in

1626
00:57:29,349 --> 00:57:27,359
all these systems

1627
00:57:30,950 --> 00:57:29,359
the idea is that underlying all these is

1628
00:57:33,670 --> 00:57:30,960
a realm of consciousness

1629
00:57:35,190 --> 00:57:33,680
which you can call it god if you like or

1630
00:57:37,430 --> 00:57:35,200
you can call it

1631
00:57:39,589 --> 00:57:37,440
ultimate emptiness or nirvana or

1632
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:39,599
whatever or bliss or joy

1633
00:57:44,309 --> 00:57:42,079
or i think the best way of thinking of

1634
00:57:48,390 --> 00:57:44,319
it in the hindu tradition is through

1635
00:57:51,990 --> 00:57:48,400
this threefold uh division ananda

1636
00:57:54,789 --> 00:57:52,000
being consciousness bliss um

1637
00:57:55,270 --> 00:57:54,799
and joseph campbell speaks about this

1638
00:57:57,670 --> 00:57:55,280
yes

1639
00:57:59,190 --> 00:57:57,680
well campbell speaks about a whole range

1640
00:58:03,510 --> 00:57:59,200
of different myths

1641
00:58:06,470 --> 00:58:03,520
and but sanchettananda is um

1642
00:58:08,069 --> 00:58:06,480
um a way of having a model of this

1643
00:58:10,549 --> 00:58:08,079
ultimate consciousness

1644
00:58:12,309 --> 00:58:10,559
without saying god's a creator or sort

1645
00:58:14,630 --> 00:58:12,319
of man with a white beard who makes

1646
00:58:17,349 --> 00:58:14,640
machinery that's obviously a naive

1647
00:58:18,470 --> 00:58:17,359
conception of god and most atheists

1648
00:58:20,069 --> 00:58:18,480
assume that

1649
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:20,079
people who believe in god have

1650
00:58:24,390 --> 00:58:21,599
incredibly naive views

1651
00:58:25,990 --> 00:58:24,400
most of them don't have such naive views

1652
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:26,000
and to add on to your point

1653
00:58:32,069 --> 00:58:29,440
uh in orthodox iconography uh

1654
00:58:34,549 --> 00:58:32,079
normally the father i.e goddess is

1655
00:58:36,150 --> 00:58:34,559
represented by a blue light

1656
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:36,160
right there's this understanding that

1657
00:58:39,910 --> 00:58:37,760
you would never depict

1658
00:58:40,950 --> 00:58:39,920
a god as a man with a white beard that

1659
00:58:43,349 --> 00:58:40,960
this comes much

1660
00:58:45,390 --> 00:58:43,359
later in the western tradition around

1661
00:58:47,589 --> 00:58:45,400
the time of the renaissance this

1662
00:58:49,670 --> 00:58:47,599
anthropomorphization of god

1663
00:58:51,750 --> 00:58:49,680
yeah so i i couldn't agree more but

1664
00:58:53,430 --> 00:58:51,760
please continue and of course in judaism

1665
00:58:55,270 --> 00:58:53,440
there's a prohibition on making any

1666
00:58:57,270 --> 00:58:55,280
images of god or the divine because

1667
00:59:00,309 --> 00:58:57,280
god's beyond all images and

1668
00:59:00,630 --> 00:59:00,319
and in islam as well and so i think that

1669
00:59:03,910 --> 00:59:00,640
the

1670
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:03,920
um if we actually take seriously what

1671
00:59:06,789 --> 00:59:04,880
serious

1672
00:59:08,710 --> 00:59:06,799
theologians and mystics within the

1673
00:59:09,430 --> 00:59:08,720
world's religious traditions think about

1674
00:59:11,829 --> 00:59:09,440
god

1675
00:59:14,069 --> 00:59:11,839
then it's nothing like what atheists

1676
00:59:15,990 --> 00:59:14,079
portray them as thinking about god

1677
00:59:19,109 --> 00:59:16,000
um you know the god atheist i'm a

1678
00:59:21,670 --> 00:59:19,119
christian i'm you know

1679
00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:21,680
i'm fine rooted in the mystical

1680
00:59:27,190 --> 00:59:23,920
traditions of christianity in my own

1681
00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:27,200
thinking and world view um

1682
00:59:31,270 --> 00:59:29,760
but when i meet atheists and they tell

1683
00:59:33,430 --> 00:59:31,280
me what they think i think

1684
00:59:34,390 --> 00:59:33,440
if there's no relation at all they've

1685
00:59:35,910 --> 00:59:34,400
got some kind of

1686
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,920
something they heard at sunday school

1687
00:59:38,069 --> 00:59:37,440
when they were 10 and they think that's

1688
00:59:40,870 --> 00:59:38,079
what

1689
00:59:41,190 --> 00:59:40,880
serious people think about god um it's

1690
00:59:43,109 --> 00:59:41,200
like

1691
00:59:44,789 --> 00:59:43,119
sort of dismissing science on the basis

1692
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:44,799
of a misunderstanding of something you

1693
00:59:49,750 --> 00:59:46,480
heard in primary school

1694
00:59:51,750 --> 00:59:49,760
it's just it is not even

1695
00:59:52,950 --> 00:59:51,760
so it doesn't even start as a serious

1696
00:59:55,990 --> 00:59:52,960
discussion

1697
00:59:56,950 --> 00:59:56,000
um so look oh sorry very quickly when

1698
01:00:00,230 --> 00:59:56,960
you look at

1699
01:00:01,990 --> 01:00:00,240
these the new atheist movement and their

1700
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:02,000
critiques of the divine

1701
01:00:05,750 --> 01:00:04,319
their critiques of god would you say

1702
01:00:08,309 --> 01:00:05,760
that the misle

1703
01:00:10,069 --> 01:00:08,319
the misleading or the misunderstanding

1704
01:00:11,589 --> 01:00:10,079
is based on this natural there's a

1705
01:00:14,630 --> 01:00:11,599
supernatural divide

1706
01:00:15,109 --> 01:00:14,640
i.e we're in the material world where

1707
01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:15,119
there's

1708
01:00:20,950 --> 01:00:18,240
toast and mycorrhizal fungi and people

1709
01:00:23,109 --> 01:00:20,960
and then there's this supernatural place

1710
01:00:24,710 --> 01:00:23,119
with god and demons and angels and

1711
01:00:26,069 --> 01:00:24,720
werewolves and vampires and all the

1712
01:00:29,109 --> 01:00:26,079
ludicrous nonsense

1713
01:00:30,789 --> 01:00:29,119
that we can just sort of shove away and

1714
01:00:31,589 --> 01:00:30,799
that there is a fundamentally true

1715
01:00:33,589 --> 01:00:31,599
reality

1716
01:00:35,990 --> 01:00:33,599
yeah i think it's for it's partly based

1717
01:00:37,910 --> 01:00:36,000
on that disastrous division of the

1718
01:00:40,549 --> 01:00:37,920
natural and supernatural

1719
01:00:41,589 --> 01:00:40,559
it's partly based on that it's partly

1720
01:00:44,150 --> 01:00:41,599
based on

1721
01:00:45,910 --> 01:00:44,160
historical arguments you know religions

1722
01:00:47,589 --> 01:00:45,920
have caused war and conflict

1723
01:00:50,549 --> 01:00:47,599
like the inquisition and that sort of

1724
01:00:53,589 --> 01:00:50,559
thing um but they conveniently ignore

1725
01:00:55,510 --> 01:00:53,599
the fact that in the 20th century

1726
01:00:57,349 --> 01:00:55,520
states that had atheist governments as

1727
01:00:59,510 --> 01:00:57,359
their official policy and believed in

1728
01:01:02,470 --> 01:00:59,520
science and reasons soviet russia

1729
01:01:04,309 --> 01:01:02,480
maoris china pol pots cambodia were

1730
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:04,319
responsible for a sort of death on an

1731
01:01:08,630 --> 01:01:05,760
industrial scale

1732
01:01:13,349 --> 01:01:08,640
unimaginable to the inquisition and the

1733
01:01:16,870 --> 01:01:15,910
aspect of the historical argument it's a

1734
01:01:22,069 --> 01:01:16,880
polemical

1735
01:01:24,789 --> 01:01:22,079
arguments which are easy to refute

1736
01:01:26,870 --> 01:01:24,799
um and uh which are spoken with the

1737
01:01:29,990 --> 01:01:26,880
further of kind of

1738
01:01:31,910 --> 01:01:30,000
evangelical creatures um

1739
01:01:34,309 --> 01:01:31,920
i just can't take that kind of atheism

1740
01:01:35,990 --> 01:01:34,319
seriously there is a kind that i can

1741
01:01:37,750 --> 01:01:36,000
take seriously there are some atheists

1742
01:01:40,230 --> 01:01:37,760
who say that

1743
01:01:42,470 --> 01:01:40,240
god is beyond the ultimate reality is

1744
01:01:44,789 --> 01:01:42,480
beyond all human conception

1745
01:01:45,910 --> 01:01:44,799
because we have limited minds live on a

1746
01:01:48,470 --> 01:01:45,920
small planet in

1747
01:01:50,710 --> 01:01:48,480
one galaxy etc therefore ultimate

1748
01:01:51,670 --> 01:01:50,720
reality has to be beyond our conceptions

1749
01:01:53,829 --> 01:01:51,680
therefore any of our

1750
01:01:54,870 --> 01:01:53,839
ideas we may form of god or ultimate

1751
01:01:58,069 --> 01:01:54,880
reality

1752
01:01:59,829 --> 01:01:58,079
uh ultimately misleading and the truth

1753
01:02:02,150 --> 01:01:59,839
goes far beyond them

1754
01:02:03,910 --> 01:02:02,160
that's a kind of mystical atheism which

1755
01:02:07,589 --> 01:02:03,920
actually is very similar

1756
01:02:08,950 --> 01:02:07,599
to mystical theology and in the orthodox

1757
01:02:11,750 --> 01:02:08,960
tradition

1758
01:02:13,829 --> 01:02:11,760
they the the mainstream theology there

1759
01:02:14,950 --> 01:02:13,839
is you probably know is called apophatic

1760
01:02:18,789 --> 01:02:14,960
theology

1761
01:02:20,630 --> 01:02:18,799
and it's about not saying what god is it

1762
01:02:22,309 --> 01:02:20,640
says we can't say what god is we can

1763
01:02:24,069 --> 01:02:22,319
only say what god is not

1764
01:02:25,510 --> 01:02:24,079
because god's so far beyond our

1765
01:02:28,789 --> 01:02:25,520
conception that

1766
01:02:31,829 --> 01:02:28,799
uh we can't form a clear image

1767
01:02:33,829 --> 01:02:31,839
and so they say there's a certain kind

1768
01:02:35,910 --> 01:02:33,839
of atheist which is very close to

1769
01:02:38,789 --> 01:02:35,920
apathetic theology and it would

1770
01:02:40,549 --> 01:02:38,799
john gray the english atheist writer i

1771
01:02:42,549 --> 01:02:40,559
would say was in that category he wrote

1772
01:02:43,829 --> 01:02:42,559
an excellent book called seven types of

1773
01:02:45,910 --> 01:02:43,839
atheism

1774
01:02:47,589 --> 01:02:45,920
which makes it much easier to understand

1775
01:02:49,589 --> 01:02:47,599
where the different kinds of atheists

1776
01:02:52,630 --> 01:02:49,599
are coming from

1777
01:02:54,870 --> 01:02:52,640
and the most superficial and and

1778
01:02:57,349 --> 01:02:54,880
and and trivial kind is the kind of

1779
01:02:59,029 --> 01:02:57,359
richard dawkins new atheist type

1780
01:03:00,470 --> 01:02:59,039
but there are more serious atheist

1781
01:03:02,549 --> 01:03:00,480
arguments and um

1782
01:03:03,589 --> 01:03:02,559
his book is wonderful introduction to

1783
01:03:07,510 --> 01:03:03,599
them

1784
01:03:09,109 --> 01:03:07,520
before i pass to uh kirk i just have

1785
01:03:11,349 --> 01:03:09,119
one quick thing to say this type of

1786
01:03:13,029 --> 01:03:11,359
atheism does have ancient roots right

1787
01:03:15,109 --> 01:03:13,039
like protagoras said

1788
01:03:16,870 --> 01:03:15,119
as for the gods i cannot say either that

1789
01:03:18,870 --> 01:03:16,880
they are or that they are not

1790
01:03:20,789 --> 01:03:18,880
or how they are constituted in shape

1791
01:03:21,910 --> 01:03:20,799
there's so much that prevents knowledge

1792
01:03:23,750 --> 01:03:21,920
of this kind

1793
01:03:25,510 --> 01:03:23,760
and clarity of the subject and the

1794
01:03:28,710 --> 01:03:25,520
shortness of human life

1795
01:03:30,069 --> 01:03:28,720
so before the kind of mystical type of

1796
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:30,079
atheist that there's

1797
01:03:34,950 --> 01:03:32,880
our limits of our own minds i mean that

1798
01:03:36,390 --> 01:03:34,960
we can't form an adequate conception of

1799
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:36,400
the ultimate

1800
01:03:40,390 --> 01:03:39,119
yes yes that has ancient roots and as i

1801
01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:40,400
say

1802
01:03:43,990 --> 01:03:43,440
in buddhism um the buddha makes the

1803
01:03:46,630 --> 01:03:44,000
buddhists

1804
01:03:48,470 --> 01:03:46,640
refuse to talk about cosmology and stuff

1805
01:03:50,470 --> 01:03:48,480
the idea is the ultimate reality is

1806
01:03:52,230 --> 01:03:50,480
beyond all our conceptions

1807
01:03:54,630 --> 01:03:52,240
and therefore the only thing to do is to

1808
01:03:56,150 --> 01:03:54,640
meditate and experience it directly

1809
01:03:58,390 --> 01:03:56,160
rather than just talk about it that

1810
01:04:01,430 --> 01:03:58,400
won't get you anywhere so

1811
01:04:03,670 --> 01:04:01,440
some people call buddhism atheistic um

1812
01:04:05,750 --> 01:04:03,680
and but it's not atheistic in the new

1813
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:05,760
atheist sense it's atheistic in a sense

1814
01:04:09,829 --> 01:04:07,520
that goes beyond

1815
01:04:11,349 --> 01:04:09,839
the limitations of human thought one of

1816
01:04:12,309 --> 01:04:11,359
the most interesting aspects that i find

1817
01:04:14,309 --> 01:04:12,319
about

1818
01:04:15,829 --> 01:04:14,319
jordan peterson is that he's made

1819
01:04:19,029 --> 01:04:15,839
religion sapid

1820
01:04:20,470 --> 01:04:19,039
and and intelligible and to the to

1821
01:04:24,069 --> 01:04:20,480
people who are formerly or

1822
01:04:25,589 --> 01:04:24,079
even current atheists what do you see as

1823
01:04:27,589 --> 01:04:25,599
how do you view that and what do you

1824
01:04:28,549 --> 01:04:27,599
like about the petersonian approach and

1825
01:04:31,270 --> 01:04:28,559
what do you not like

1826
01:04:33,029 --> 01:04:31,280
i'm curious to know your thoughts i

1827
01:04:35,349 --> 01:04:33,039
think peterson's done a great job

1828
01:04:37,109 --> 01:04:35,359
in in bringing up questions serious

1829
01:04:38,710 --> 01:04:37,119
important questions and making them

1830
01:04:40,789 --> 01:04:38,720
things that a lot of people

1831
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:40,799
see his questions and want to talk about

1832
01:04:44,789 --> 01:04:42,640
and discuss

1833
01:04:46,230 --> 01:04:44,799
and he's also done a great job in

1834
01:04:48,390 --> 01:04:46,240
reaching out to people who

1835
01:04:49,990 --> 01:04:48,400
identify as atheists and even

1836
01:04:54,150 --> 01:04:50,000
materialists

1837
01:04:56,150 --> 01:04:54,160
um i think

1838
01:04:58,390 --> 01:04:56,160
so i think that's a tremendous triumph

1839
01:05:00,069 --> 01:04:58,400
making intellectual arguments

1840
01:05:02,950 --> 01:05:00,079
intellectual discussions

1841
01:05:04,630 --> 01:05:02,960
part of popular culture um rather than

1842
01:05:06,150 --> 01:05:04,640
just being confined to university

1843
01:05:09,349 --> 01:05:06,160
seminar rooms because

1844
01:05:12,230 --> 01:05:09,359
he makes the questions real and relevant

1845
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:12,240
i think when it comes to his views on

1846
01:05:15,589 --> 01:05:12,880
god

1847
01:05:17,510 --> 01:05:15,599
and it's i find it rather hard to know

1848
01:05:19,910 --> 01:05:17,520
what he's actually saying i mean he's

1849
01:05:21,190 --> 01:05:19,920
talking about young and about archetypes

1850
01:05:23,990 --> 01:05:21,200
all very clever

1851
01:05:25,990 --> 01:05:24,000
um but you know i'd like to know whether

1852
01:05:26,950 --> 01:05:26,000
he goes to church whether he prays and

1853
01:05:30,230 --> 01:05:26,960
that sort of thing

1854
01:05:31,430 --> 01:05:30,240
i mean i go to church i pray i'm i'm a

1855
01:05:34,549 --> 01:05:31,440
practicing anglican

1856
01:05:35,349 --> 01:05:34,559
i so you know i don't try to pretend i'm

1857
01:05:38,390 --> 01:05:35,359
not

1858
01:05:40,870 --> 01:05:38,400
and by just and he may want to

1859
01:05:42,150 --> 01:05:40,880
not to say that maybe he doesn't go to

1860
01:05:43,670 --> 01:05:42,160
church doesn't pray

1861
01:05:45,990 --> 01:05:43,680
maybe he doesn't have any personal

1862
01:05:47,829 --> 01:05:46,000
religious faith or practice

1863
01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:47,839
maybe he just thinks religion is a good

1864
01:05:52,069 --> 01:05:50,160
thing in the abstract or in or

1865
01:05:53,510 --> 01:05:52,079
good for people's psyche or fits with

1866
01:05:55,750 --> 01:05:53,520
the right archetypes

1867
01:05:57,109 --> 01:05:55,760
it's awfully hard i mean i know there

1868
01:05:58,549 --> 01:05:57,119
are people who've watched hundreds of

1869
01:06:01,029 --> 01:05:58,559
hours of jordan peterson

1870
01:06:02,230 --> 01:06:01,039
i'm i've only watched it much less than

1871
01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:02,240
that so

1872
01:06:06,150 --> 01:06:04,480
it may be he clarifies this somewhere

1873
01:06:09,190 --> 01:06:06,160
but the ones i've seen i found a bit

1874
01:06:15,510 --> 01:06:12,390
well what's next for you and where can

1875
01:06:17,510 --> 01:06:15,520
our audience find out more about you

1876
01:06:19,150 --> 01:06:17,520
well they can find anyone can find out

1877
01:06:20,309 --> 01:06:19,160
more about me on my website

1878
01:06:22,390 --> 01:06:20,319
sheldrake.org

1879
01:06:24,710 --> 01:06:22,400
which links to my youtube channel where

1880
01:06:27,190 --> 01:06:24,720
there are many videos and dialogues and

1881
01:06:30,309 --> 01:06:27,200
discussions and

1882
01:06:33,670 --> 01:06:30,319
so there's plenty of information there

1883
01:06:34,470 --> 01:06:33,680
my book sounds set free it summarizes my

1884
01:06:37,829 --> 01:06:34,480
views about

1885
01:06:40,549 --> 01:06:37,839
the need to go beyond materialistic uh

1886
01:06:42,549 --> 01:06:40,559
science into a wider more inclusive and

1887
01:06:45,990 --> 01:06:42,559
holistic paradigm

1888
01:06:49,430 --> 01:06:46,000
my two most recent books um where

1889
01:06:50,630 --> 01:06:49,440
i try to bring together my scientific

1890
01:06:52,150 --> 01:06:50,640
understanding of the world with

1891
01:06:54,230 --> 01:06:52,160
spiritual practices

1892
01:06:56,230 --> 01:06:54,240
but one is called science and spiritual

1893
01:06:58,950 --> 01:06:56,240
practices deals with seven different

1894
01:07:01,910 --> 01:06:58,960
spiritual practices including meditation

1895
01:07:03,349 --> 01:07:01,920
gratitude connecting with nature and

1896
01:07:05,990 --> 01:07:03,359
pilgrimage

1897
01:07:07,750 --> 01:07:06,000
and as the most recent book ways to go

1898
01:07:09,990 --> 01:07:07,760
beyond and why they work

1899
01:07:11,750 --> 01:07:10,000
is about seven more spiritual practices

1900
01:07:14,950 --> 01:07:11,760
including sports

1901
01:07:16,470 --> 01:07:14,960
learning from animals fasting

1902
01:07:18,950 --> 01:07:16,480
and spiritual openings through

1903
01:07:20,710 --> 01:07:18,960
psychedelics

1904
01:07:23,510 --> 01:07:20,720
and the celebration of holy days and

1905
01:07:25,589 --> 01:07:23,520
festivals all of these are practices

1906
01:07:29,270 --> 01:07:25,599
which can be done within or outside the

1907
01:07:30,870 --> 01:07:29,280
framework of any particular religion

1908
01:07:32,710 --> 01:07:30,880
and now all of them are being studied

1909
01:07:36,230 --> 01:07:32,720
scientifically

1910
01:07:38,630 --> 01:07:36,240
in a way that um brings science and

1911
01:07:40,789 --> 01:07:38,640
spirituality into a complementary and

1912
01:07:43,510 --> 01:07:40,799
mutually helpful relationship

1913
01:07:44,950 --> 01:07:43,520
rather than some kind of antagonistic

1914
01:07:47,029 --> 01:07:44,960
slanging match

1915
01:07:48,470 --> 01:07:47,039
um and that's much more constructive and

1916
01:07:51,510 --> 01:07:48,480
helpful anyway that's

1917
01:07:53,670 --> 01:07:51,520
that's the theme of my most recent books

1918
01:07:56,390 --> 01:07:53,680
and as for what comes next i'm using

1919
01:08:00,549 --> 01:07:56,400
this period of enforced

1920
01:08:03,589 --> 01:08:00,559
grounding in in my home in in in london

1921
01:08:05,829 --> 01:08:03,599
um as

1922
01:08:08,630 --> 01:08:05,839
actually i see it as a wonderful

1923
01:08:10,630 --> 01:08:08,640
blessing because

1924
01:08:12,950 --> 01:08:10,640
i'm writing scientific papers now i've

1925
01:08:16,229 --> 01:08:12,960
got about seven or eight papers

1926
01:08:18,789 --> 01:08:16,239
based on data from my experiments um and

1927
01:08:20,390 --> 01:08:18,799
uh other ideas which i've wanted to

1928
01:08:22,390 --> 01:08:20,400
write out for years and have never had

1929
01:08:24,709 --> 01:08:22,400
the time and now i have so

1930
01:08:26,950 --> 01:08:24,719
um talking of peer-reviewed journals i'm

1931
01:08:30,229 --> 01:08:26,960
now in full peer-reviewed journal

1932
01:08:32,470 --> 01:08:30,239
mode um i'm writing finished one last

1933
01:08:36,309 --> 01:08:32,480
week i'm writing another right now

1934
01:08:38,070 --> 01:08:36,319
um so um that that's what i'm up to at

1935
01:08:39,669 --> 01:08:38,080
the moment

1936
01:08:42,309 --> 01:08:39,679
rupert your pleasure to talk to a

1937
01:08:44,630 --> 01:08:42,319
pleasure to listen to thank you so much

1938
01:08:45,910 --> 01:08:44,640
right well good luck good luck to both